[Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation

Tue Aug 20 06:02:55 UTC 2024

I wonder if these posts might be relevant (just two links here representing
a lot of related discussion):
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000500.html ("fail to
miss", and psycholinguistic opacity of some usage of negation)
http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/002164.html ("unpacked")

(By the way, I agree with the others who have said there is a meaning
difference between for example valuable and invaluable, where the latter
means 'can't be valued' as a more extreme meaning. At least in principle
and etymology, while a corpus study of usage might show how these terms are
actually used, if different. Invaluable, at least, is for my native
California English only learned vocabulary that I would probably only used
in a relatively prescriptive way. But I'm not sure about others.)

Daniel

On Mon, Aug 19, 2024 at 9:19 AM Jeremy Bradley via Lingtyp <
lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:

> Analogy to "irrespective" is probably an etymological factor in that one,
> but I would assume that expletive reading is why the school grammarian
> argument against it - that it's a double negative and thus shouldn't have a
> negative reading in the end - doesn't hold in practice and people don't
> actually have problems parsing the intended meaning there.
>
> Best,
> Jeremy
> On 19/08/2024 18:07, Peter Arkadiev wrote:
>
> What about the (in)famous "irregardless" then?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Peter
>
> 19.08.2024, 17:04, "Jeremy Bradley via Lingtyp"
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
> Mari (Uralic) has an interesting pair of adjectives using the fully
> productive privative derivational suffix *-dəme* '-less' here:
>
> *mučas-dəme*
> end-PRIV
> 'endless'
>
> *ńi-mučas-dəme*
> NEG-end-PRIV
> 'endless'
>
> ... with *ńi*- being a prefix most likely borrowed from Russian used to
> create negative indefinites (*molan *'why' > *ńimonal *'for no reason')
> and otherwise only attaching to pronominal stems.
>
> Best,
> Jeremy
>
>
> On 18/08/2024 22:11, Hartmut Haberland via Lingtyp wrote:
>
> I do not know if anybody has remarked on German *Untiefe* which actually
> has two opposite meanings:
>
> 1. a shallow part of a river or the sea, where the water is *not* deep,
> hence a danger for ships that might get stuck
>
> 2. an unfathomably deep part of a river (rarely) or the sea
>
> This is what the dictionaries say. For me, *Untiefe* has mostly the first
> meaning, although some people might claim it is old-fashioned or even
> obsolete.
>
> Hartmut Haberland
>
>
>
> *Fra:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *På vegne af *Volker Gast via
> Lingtyp
> *Sendt:* 18. august 2024 21:25
> *Til:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Emne:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> There are some further interesting examples of the German un-prefix on
> nouns:
>
>
>
> Un-mensch 'inhuman person'
>
> Un-person 'persona non grata'
>
> Un-ding 'something unheard of'
>
> Un-zahl 'huge number' (cf. Un-menge)
>
>
>
> I had a look at Grimm's Wörterbuch, where I found some further examples
> that I was unaware of, e.g. Un-haufe 'un-heap', Un-masse 'un-mass'. Some of
> these words seem to be relatively old (16th cent.), others quite recent
> (and Unperson may have been influenced by G. Orwell's English coinage? It
> seems to have emerged in the middle of the 20th century in German,
> according to the DWDS).
>
>
>
> There's clearly an emotive component to all of these, and I think they all
> have a negative connotation. Some of the nouns seem to be formed on the
> model of the pattern
>
>
>
> 'Some x that you cannot V (measure, count)' (cf. Stephane's comment)
>
>
>
> "Un-mensch" is perhaps the example that's closest to literal negation,
> 'someone who is not a human being'. Unding is mostly used for abstract
> entities, in my German, and more or less means 'scandal'.
>
>
>
> I think I would see these examples as instances of subjectification and
> specialization, as others have written or implied. The core meaning of
> 'un-' still survives in the negative evaluation (cf. Bastian). Btw I think
> that 'Un-menge' also has a negative evaluation. It's not just a large
> quantity -- it's a quantity that's TOO large, according to some standard.
>
>
>
> Best,
> Volker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 16.08.2024 um 14:18 schrieb ROBERT Stephane via Lingtyp:
>
> I fully agree with Bastian which perhaps expresses more clearly what I
> meant by “high degree”: subjective evaluation pointing to an extreme degree
> (indescribable, inexpressible), positive or negative depending on the
> notion involved.
>
> To take on this meaning, lexical negation must be combined with a gradable
> (or scalar) notion. In the case of nouns, this typically involves mass
> nouns, such as Menge (crowd), Tiefe (depth) vs. Freiheit (freedom).
>
>
>
> Stéphane
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Zingler, Tim
> via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 14:15
> *À :* Bastian Persohn
> *Cc :* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> Well, the point is that these words contain what synchronically looks like
> a negator affix even though that affix does not negate the stem. So, they
> seem to qualify for the phenomenon the original post was about.
>
>
>
> But I like the idea that the function has shifted as part of
> a subjectification (?) process. Does that happen with negators
> cross-linguistically?
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Tim
> ------------------------------
>
> *Von:* Bastian Persohn <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
> <persohn.linguistics at gmail.com>
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 13:55
> *An:* Zingler, Tim
> *Cc:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> I’m not sure that *Untiefe* is synonymous with *Tiefe*, or *Unmenge* with
> *Menge*. In my intuition *Un-menge* has an evaluative ring to it (‚an
> undesirably large or over-the-top amount‘), and DWDS translates it as ’sehr
> große, übergroße Menge’ [very big, unnecessary big amount]’. Similarly,
> *Un-tiefe* usually refers to an extreme depth (cf. DWDS: ‚abgrundartige,
> sehr große Tiefe in einem Gewässer [abysm-like, very large depth in a body
> of water]‘.
>
>
>
> Their closest relatives are probably found in instances like *Un-fall* ‚accident‘
> < *Fall* ‚case‘, i.e. ‚the undesirable case‘ or *Un-tier* ‚monster‘, lit
> ‚un-animal‘. What all these have in common is a negative element, albeit in
> the subjective rather than the material domain.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Bastian
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 16.08.2024 um 13:10 schrieb Zingler, Tim via Lingtyp
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>:
>
>
>
> German has *Un-tiefe*, which essentially means the same as *Tiefe* 'depth'.
> Or *Un-menge*, largely synonymous with *Menge* 'mass, crowd, great
> amount.' These seem perfectly analogous to *valuable-invaluable*.
>
>
>
> I'm sure there's more, but I don't know if that prefix is cognate with the
> negator found in, for instance, *Un-freiheit* 'unfreedom.' So, there are
> probably complications involved if one were to analyze that more seriously.
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Tim
> ------------------------------
>
> *Von:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> im Auftrag von ROBERT
> Stephane via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. August 2024 11:48
> *An:* lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> *Betreff:* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> Dear Joe,
>
>
>
> Personally, I do not regard these uses of lexical negation as expletive
> but rather as contributing a construction with a high-degree value that can
> be paraphrased as follows: 'this object is (valuable) to a degree that I
> (speaker) cannot (even) express', or '*no* matter how hard I try to
> estimate how much X is P, I *can't* express it'(P for predicate).
>
>
> Note that in the examples I can analyse (Germanic, English and also French
> '*in-estim-able*'), this lexical negation is combined with a suffix (cf.
> Germ. -*bar*, Eng. < Fr. -*able*) which contributes to the meaning of the
> construction because it expresses evaluation about capacity ‘which can be
> P’ .
>
>
>
> Best
>
> Stéphane ROBERT
>
> https://llacan.cnrs.fr
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *De :* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> de la part de Hannu Tommola
> via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 16 août 2024 11:03
> *À :* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>; Pun Ho Lui
> *Objet :* Re: [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> there seems to be a tendency to lexicalize 'invaluable' in an intensifying
> non-negative meaning (cf. Russian *bes-cennyj* 'invaluable, priceless',
> which has an obsolete meaning 'valueless' = *ne-cennyj*). This tendency
> goes back to the verb 'value' that has, in various languages, both the
> meanings 1) 'estimate', 2) 'regard/estimate highly'. Cf. also German
> *un-schätzbar* 'invaluable' < *schätzen* 1. 'to regard highly, respect',
> 2. 'value, estimate'; the same applies to  Swedish*o-skattbar* <
> *(upp)skatta*.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Hannu Tommola
> ------------------------------
>
> *Lähettäjä:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> käyttäjän Pun Ho Lui via
> Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> puolesta
> *Lähetetty:* perjantai 16. elokuuta 2024 3.22
> *Vastaanottaja:* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
> <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Aihe:* [Lingtyp] Expletive derivational negation
>
>
>
> Dear linguists,
>
>
>
> I am recently interested in lexical items that consist of a derivational
> negative affix which may not contribute a negative meaning (i.e. being
> expletive).
>
>
>
> For instance, *in-valuable* ~ *valuable*. Other possible examples would
> be 無價 ‘invaluable [lit. NEG value’ in Mandarin, and *sewashi-nai* ‘restless’
> ~ *sewashii* ‘busy’ in Japanese.
>
>
>
> I have looked into a number of (decent) grammar descriptions but have no
> luck.
>
>
>
> I am wondering if you know of any language with similar items.
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> Warmest,
>
> Pun Ho Lui Joe
>
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>
>
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>
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>
> --
> Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
> University of Vienna
> http://www.mari-language.comjeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at
>
> Office address:
> Institut EVSL
> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
> Universität Wien
> Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
> Spitalgasse 2-4
> 1090 Wien
> AUSTRIA
>
> Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
> Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley
>
> ,
>
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>
>
>
> --
> Peter Arkadiev, PhD Habil.
> https://peterarkadiev.github.io/
>
>
> --
> Jeremy Bradley, Ph.D.
> University of Vienna
> http://www.mari-language.comjeremy.moss.bradley@univie.ac.at
>
> Office address:
> Institut EVSL
> Abteilung Finno-Ugristik
> Universität Wien
> Campus AAKH, Hof 7-2
> Spitalgasse 2-4
> 1090 Wien
> AUSTRIA
>
> Mobile: +43-664-99-31-788
> Skype: jeremy.moss.bradley
>
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