[Lingtyp] "Hell if I know!" marker

Tue Feb 6 04:55:45 UTC 2024

Thank you all for your responses!
Wesley

On Fri, Feb 2, 2024 at 5:32 PM Ellison Luk <ellisonluk at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Wesley,
>
> From your examples and explanation, it seems that *khuní* expresses (or
> correlates with) a lack of knowledge on part of the speaker (or maybe even
> a lack of knowability on their part; i.e. 'I couldn't possibly know this,
> or have the right to claim knowledge of this'). In that case, Anna
> Sjöberg's typology of knowledge predication (available online) might be
> useful for your analysis? Although it's not really predication in your
> case...
>
> Also, as a native Cantonese speaker, I was also reminded of Pun Ho Lui's
> example with 鬼 'ghost'. However, to me it's only compatible with your
> example 2B if the speaker wanted to express some mild annoyance at being
> asked a question they couldn't answer (literal interpretation being that
> only a ghost would know, therefore no one could know).
>
> Good luck with it!
> Ellison
>
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 23:53, Carl Whitehead <carl_whitehead at sil.org>
> wrote:
>
>> In Menya (Angan Family, Morobe P, PNG), there is a contrast between the
>> sentential clitic *=ta* which indicates a polar question and the
>> sentential clitic *=ti* which can either express ‘I wonder if…’ or be a
>> response to a question indicating ‘I don’t know …’. I refer to =*ti* as
>> the dubitative mood marker.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>>
>>
>> Carl Whitehead
>>
>> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *On Behalf
>> Of *Timur Maisak
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2024 4:54 AM
>> *Cc:* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <
>> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] "Hell if I know!" marker
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Wesley,
>>
>> on the semantic description of non-canonical questions, including the 'I
>> wonder' type, please see Farkas 2022 (https://doi.org/10.1093/jos/ffac001
>> ).
>>
>> There are various parameters that can be important - e.g., whether the
>> speaker knows the answer or not, whether they assume that the addressee
>> knows the answer or not, whether the speaker really expects to get an
>> answer from the addressee, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> Very best,
>>
>> Timur Maisak
>>
>>
>>
>> ср, 31 янв. 2024 г. в 21:48, Wesley Kuhron Jones <
>> wesleykuhronjones at gmail.com>:
>>
>> Hi Pun Ho,
>>
>>
>>
>> To clarify, it is not vulgar or taboo. I didn't mean to use the English
>> "hell" in any vulgar way here, just emphatic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Wesley
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 6:46 PM Pun Ho Lui <luiph001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Wesley Kuhron Jones,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am not sure whether the *khuni *marker has some taboo connotation—I
>> may be biased by the translation of ‘hell’, but I would like to share a bit.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Cantonese, the 鬼 gwai ‘ghost’ can indicate negation in a rhetorical
>> question:
>>
>>
>>
>> 鬼       知       咩
>>
>> ghost  know   Q
>>
>> ‘Hell if I know!’/ ‘I don’t know!'
>>
>>
>>
>> In my manuscript (under review), I call the ‘ghost’ and other similar
>> items in other languages as "taboo negator”.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope it helps!
>>
>>
>>
>> Warmest,
>>
>> Pun Ho Lui
>>
>>
>>
>> Wesley Kuhron Jones <wesleykuhronjones at gmail.com> 於 2024年2月1日 上午2:26 寫道：
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Horokoi (Trans-New Guinea, Morobe Province, [gsp]) has two emphatic
>> question markers that I know of so far: *kho* (currently glossing as
>> 'I.wonder') and *khuní* (currently glossing as 'hell.if.I.know'). I am
>> trying to figure out what terms to use to describe them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Note that *khuní* appears, from looking at the form, to be derived from
>> *kho* plus a particle *ni* which is often used in other contexts for
>> emphasis or contrastive focus.
>>
>>
>>
>> In exchange 1, the "I wonder" marker *kho* is used because speaker B
>> also just noticed and wonders what happened.
>>
>>
>>
>> 1A: *Nga wo-re?*
>> where go-3sg.prs
>> 'Where did that person go?'
>>
>> 1B: *Nga wo-re kho?*
>> where go-3sg.prs I.wonder
>> 'Hey yeah, where did they go indeed?'
>>
>> (I didn't notice that they were gone until you said 1A, then I looked and
>> also am wondering where they went.)
>>
>>
>>
>> In exchange 2, the "hell if I know" marker *khuní* is used because
>> speaker B seems to already have wondered about this and accepted that they
>> don't know the answer. Then speaker A asks them about it and they respond.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2A: *Nga wo-re?*
>> where go-3sg.prs
>> 'Where did that person go?'
>>
>> 2B: *Nga wo-re khuní?*
>> where go-3sg.prs hell.if.I.know
>> 'Yeah man, where *did* they go?'
>>
>> (Rhetorical, I have no idea what the answer is.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Both of these markers can also be used in questions that are not
>> responses to other questions.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3. *Neku-kha ihe a-re kho?*
>> who-foc pig kill-3sg.prs I.wonder
>> 'Who killed the pig?'
>> (Someone brings me a dead pig, I see it, and I ask this.)
>>
>> 4. *Neku-kha ihe a-re khuní?*
>> who-foc pig kill-3sg.prs hell.if.I.know
>> 'Who killed the pig?'
>> (I know that a pig has been killed, so I go to the place where it is and
>> ask this to the people there.)
>>
>> It seems that 1B and 2B are used rhetorically, while 3 and 4 are actually
>> seeking answers from the listener.
>>
>>
>>
>> I know of a few particles like *denn* in German and *acaba* in Turkish
>> that have some similar functions to these. Please let me know any
>> terminology about these kinds of markers, references, or examples from
>> other languages.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Wesley Kuhron Jones
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Lingtyp mailing list
>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Lingtyp mailing list
> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lingtyp/attachments/20240206/1c63e366/attachment.htm>