[Lingtyp] "Hell if I know!" marker

Fri Feb 2 17:31:28 UTC 2024

Hi Wesley,

>From your examples and explanation, it seems that *khuní* expresses (or
correlates with) a lack of knowledge on part of the speaker (or maybe even
a lack of knowability on their part; i.e. 'I couldn't possibly know this,
or have the right to claim knowledge of this'). In that case, Anna
Sjöberg's typology of knowledge predication (available online) might be
useful for your analysis? Although it's not really predication in your
case...

Also, as a native Cantonese speaker, I was also reminded of Pun Ho Lui's
example with 鬼 'ghost'. However, to me it's only compatible with your
example 2B if the speaker wanted to express some mild annoyance at being
asked a question they couldn't answer (literal interpretation being that
only a ghost would know, therefore no one could know).

Good luck with it!
Ellison

On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 23:53, Carl Whitehead <carl_whitehead at sil.org> wrote:

> In Menya (Angan Family, Morobe P, PNG), there is a contrast between the
> sentential clitic *=ta* which indicates a polar question and the
> sentential clitic *=ti* which can either express ‘I wonder if…’ or be a
> response to a question indicating ‘I don’t know …’. I refer to =*ti* as
> the dubitative mood marker.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps,
>
>
>
> Carl Whitehead
>
> *From:* Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> *On Behalf Of
> *Timur Maisak
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 1, 2024 4:54 AM
> *Cc:* <LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG> <
> lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Lingtyp] "Hell if I know!" marker
>
>
>
> Dear Wesley,
>
> on the semantic description of non-canonical questions, including the 'I
> wonder' type, please see Farkas 2022 (https://doi.org/10.1093/jos/ffac001
> ).
>
> There are various parameters that can be important - e.g., whether the
> speaker knows the answer or not, whether they assume that the addressee
> knows the answer or not, whether the speaker really expects to get an
> answer from the addressee, etc.
>
>
>
> Very best,
>
> Timur Maisak
>
>
>
> ср, 31 янв. 2024 г. в 21:48, Wesley Kuhron Jones <
> wesleykuhronjones at gmail.com>:
>
> Hi Pun Ho,
>
>
>
> To clarify, it is not vulgar or taboo. I didn't mean to use the English
> "hell" in any vulgar way here, just emphatic.
>
>
>
> Wesley
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2024 at 6:46 PM Pun Ho Lui <luiph001 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Wesley Kuhron Jones,
>
>
>
> I am not sure whether the *khuni *marker has some taboo connotation—I may
> be biased by the translation of ‘hell’, but I would like to share a bit.
>
>
>
> In Cantonese, the 鬼 gwai ‘ghost’ can indicate negation in a rhetorical
> question:
>
>
>
> 鬼       知       咩
>
> ghost  know   Q
>
> ‘Hell if I know!’/ ‘I don’t know!'
>
>
>
> In my manuscript (under review), I call the ‘ghost’ and other similar
> items in other languages as "taboo negator”.
>
>
>
> Hope it helps!
>
>
>
> Warmest,
>
> Pun Ho Lui
>
>
>
> Wesley Kuhron Jones <wesleykuhronjones at gmail.com> 於 2024年2月1日 上午2:26 寫道：
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Horokoi (Trans-New Guinea, Morobe Province, [gsp]) has two emphatic
> question markers that I know of so far: *kho* (currently glossing as
> 'I.wonder') and *khuní* (currently glossing as 'hell.if.I.know'). I am
> trying to figure out what terms to use to describe them.
>
>
>
> Note that *khuní* appears, from looking at the form, to be derived from
> *kho* plus a particle *ni* which is often used in other contexts for
> emphasis or contrastive focus.
>
>
>
> In exchange 1, the "I wonder" marker *kho* is used because speaker B also
> just noticed and wonders what happened.
>
>
>
> 1A: *Nga wo-re?*
> where go-3sg.prs
> 'Where did that person go?'
>
> 1B: *Nga wo-re kho?*
> where go-3sg.prs I.wonder
> 'Hey yeah, where did they go indeed?'
>
> (I didn't notice that they were gone until you said 1A, then I looked and
> also am wondering where they went.)
>
>
>
> In exchange 2, the "hell if I know" marker *khuní* is used because
> speaker B seems to already have wondered about this and accepted that they
> don't know the answer. Then speaker A asks them about it and they respond.
>
>
>
> 2A: *Nga wo-re?*
> where go-3sg.prs
> 'Where did that person go?'
>
> 2B: *Nga wo-re khuní?*
> where go-3sg.prs hell.if.I.know
> 'Yeah man, where *did* they go?'
>
> (Rhetorical, I have no idea what the answer is.)
>
>
>
> Both of these markers can also be used in questions that are not responses
> to other questions.
>
>
>
> 3. *Neku-kha ihe a-re kho?*
> who-foc pig kill-3sg.prs I.wonder
> 'Who killed the pig?'
> (Someone brings me a dead pig, I see it, and I ask this.)
>
> 4. *Neku-kha ihe a-re khuní?*
> who-foc pig kill-3sg.prs hell.if.I.know
> 'Who killed the pig?'
> (I know that a pig has been killed, so I go to the place where it is and
> ask this to the people there.)
>
> It seems that 1B and 2B are used rhetorically, while 3 and 4 are actually
> seeking answers from the listener.
>
>
>
> I know of a few particles like *denn* in German and *acaba* in Turkish
> that have some similar functions to these. Please let me know any
> terminology about these kinds of markers, references, or examples from
> other languages.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Wesley Kuhron Jones
>
>
>
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