[Lingtyp] Intuitions about inclusive time reference
Lidia Federica Mazzitelli
lfmazzitelli at gmail.com
Thu Feb 15 17:27:00 UTC 2024
Dear Pier Marco,
oh, no problem, I also admit that I don't like to provide examples with
imaginary contexts because I am not good at it, I keep imagining all
possible variables in the context where I would naturally utter such a
sentence, and then I get a bit confused. I would definitely use the forms
you (and Riccardo) provided. And indeed, imagining the following dialogue
A: "*Che mi dici della domanda di Maria?*" "What about Mary's application?"
B:* Tutto bene, la inviava oggi* 'All good, she
send.INDICATIVE:IMPERFECTIVE it today' (implied: as per my latest
knowledge, she wants to send it today) - neutral
but my original example *Tutto bene, la invia oggi *'All good, she sends it
today' has a strong implication that either (i) she has not yet sent it and
will later today or (ii) she was struggling with it and now she's
absolutely certain she is able to send it.
I could also imagine a context where I say "*Oh, oggi Maria invia la
domanda! Chiediamole se l'ha già fatto*" 'Oh, today Maria sends the
application! Let's ask her if she has already done it' - here the main
factor in play is that we (the imaginary third colleague and I) have been
expecting Maria to send it (like 'the great day has finally arrived, today
Maria sends the application'). (or, with another verb: "*Oh, oggi arriva
Francesco dalla Germania! Andiamo a vedere se è già arrivato" *'Today
Francesco arrives from germany. let's go see if he's already arrived' -
*arrivava* IMPERF is also possible).
I think the difference between* inviava* (IND:IMPERF) and *invia*
(IND:PRES) is that in the first case I am reporting what was told to me
yesterday (either by Maria or by someone else), in the second case I am
stating that the expected date of Maria's sending the application has
(finally) arrived. So probably* inviava* is the best answer to Östen's
original question.
(To be sure, I just now asked my mom, also a speaker of Roman Italian
(rephrasing the example into "Ludovica (my sister's name) SEND a letter").
It took me while to get here to produce a sentence without additional
elements like "she promised that", "she said that". I finally suggested the
following context: she and I are chatting, and then she suddeny remembers
my sister's intention to send the letter - what would she say, out of the
blue? She suggested either "*Oh,* *Oggi Ludovica dovrebbe inviare la
lettera*" (she *should send* the letter). When I asked about *"inviava/doveva
inviare*" (sent/had to send - indicative imperfective), she accepted it but
marked it as "incorrect Italian" (because of indicative mood instead of
conditional). Finally, I asked about "*spedisce*" (sends - indicative
present). She also accepted it, but remarked that it would only be fine if
you are absolutely certain that she does send it today, no matter what
time.)
Best, Lidia
PS: I agree sottomettere may have a negative undertone, and inviare is
just as good. But I really endorse the use of applicare and applicazione to
mean 'apply (for a job/a grant)' and 'application' - I like these loans
very much. There may also be a slight generational difference - my mother
does not use applicare and applicazione either with this meaning, even
though she also works in academia.
On Thu, Feb 15, 2024 at 4:31 PM Pier Marco Bertinetto <
piermarco.bertinetto at sns.it> wrote:
> Dear All,
> I do not share Lidia's view (sorry, Lidia!).
> If I understand Östen's example correctly, the intention to submit the
> application was expressed yesterday and at the moment I still ignore
> whether the event has occurred.
> I would then say:
> a) Oggi Maria inviava (Imperfect) la sua domanda
> (= most obvious rendering; absolutely neuter w.r.t. occurrence)
> b) Oggi Maria doveva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda
> (= epistemic meaning of 'dovere'; underlines uncertainty about the
> occurrence)
> c) Oggi Maria voleva (Imperfect) inviare la sua domanda
> (= I would rank it epstemically intermediate between (a) and (b))
> d) Oggi Maria avrebbe inviato (Past Conditional) la sua domanda
> (= double reading: (i) essentially similar to (b) but definitely not
> colloquial; (ii) counterfactual, i.e. I know that she could not [(ii) is of
> course irrelevant with respect to the situation proposed by Östen])
>
> PS: Lidia is right in observing that most people nowadays use these two
> loans (sottomettere, applicazione); but since these words have other
> meanings in Italian, I prefer, at the cost of being called purist, to avoid
> them in these contexts.
> In other words: Io sottopongo domande (che sono certo frutto della mia
> applicazione), ma non mi sottometto. Mai!
>
> Best
> Pier Marco
>
>
> Il giorno gio 15 feb 2024 alle ore 11:44 Lidia Federica Mazzitelli <
> lfmazzitelli at gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> Dear Östen,
>>
>> In Italian I would say:
>>
>> "*Oggi Mary spedisce la domanda*" ** Today Mary submits the application'
>> - if I am just fact-stating (In a context like Colleague A: "How's it going
>> with that proposal Mary has been working on? ME: *Tutto bene, oggi la
>> spedisce *"All good, today she submits it" - it is fine both in case she
>> already sent it/ she has not yet sent it.)
>>
>> "*Oggi Mary dovrebbe spedire la domanda*" 'Today Mary should submit the
>> application' (who knows if she will at all?) - if chatting with a third
>> colleague about Mary (and I am unsure whether she will be submitting the
>> application at all).
>>
>> (** Please note: In real life I'd say "*oggi Maria sottomette la
>> domanda per la grant*", o "oggi *Maria sottomette l'applicazione**" *but
>> I would then have to endure endless reprimands from purists who say "you
>> don't use "sottomettere" and "applicare"/"applicazione" in Italian with
>> that meaning!" - even if almost everyone uses them (and I fully
>> endorse this use). I don't even try to translate grant, so I blocked it out
>> from my translation.)
>>
>> My intuition on Lakurumau, an Oceanic language of PNG, is that they would
>> use the irrealis - unless they were absolutely certain she had already sent
>> it (But that's not the context you imagined, right?)
>>
>> T*aning** Mary ka=daa lis paan-in a application
>> pan=a grant*
>> today M. 3SG.S=IRR send go-APPL ART application OBL=ART grant
>>
>> Best,
>> Lidia
>>
>>
>>
>> Il mer 14 feb 2024, 22:29 Östen Dahl <oesten at ling.su.se> ha scritto:
>>
>>> I would like to ask for intuitions about the following, in one or more
>>> languages that you are acquainted with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Suppose your colleague Mary said on Monday: "Tomorrow I'm going to
>>> submit my grant proposal." Now it's about noon on Tuesday, and you have no
>>> idea whatsoever of the time of the realization of her intention. Maybe she
>>> did it in the morning, maybe she'll wait until midnight, and maybe she's
>>> just doing it right now. How would you express the sentence below in your
>>> language(s), replacing SUBMIT by a suitable verb form? The idea is that you
>>> should try to use a maximally simple and natural formulation without
>>> excluding any possibility.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Today Mary SUBMIT her grant proposal
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All comments are welcome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> - Östen
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org
>>> https://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/lingtyp
>>>
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>
>
> --
>
> ========================================================= |||| Pier Marco Bertinetto
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> /////// Scuola Normale Superiore
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