[Lingtyp] Weak scalar quantifiers (some)

[Giurgea Ion]

 Dear Mira,In Romanian there is a specialized determiner for what you call "scalar some" : unii "one-the.mpl", unele "one-the.fpl" . This word does not have the distribution of Spanish "unos", but rather resembles French "certain". I guess the definite forms (with -i, -le = "-the") may be explained from an original pronominal use (where we find "one-the" also in the singular).In the oblique case (genitive-dative), the determiner does not have the def. marker ("un-or" = "one-obl.pl") and the form is not restricted to the "scalar" use (it also supplies the oblique of the "non-scalar" plural indefinite article "nişte" = "non-scalar" "some") 
As this determiner is only plural, it cannot be used with mass nouns: we have to use "o parte din" ("a part of", lit. "a part from"). In your example with the apples, "o parte din" or the small number quantifier "câteva" ("how-many+indef.-marker") are preferable because the apples are seen as a mass, there are not relevant distinctions between the individual apples chosen.
All the best,Ion Giurgea
    On Thursday, January 2, 2025 at 01:02:47 PM GMT+2, Mira Ariel via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:  
 
 Thank you very much, Christian (Please see below). 
I think I have to extend my question to an etymological association of scalar quantifiers (exemplified below) with:
Determiners (indefinite markers and pronouns) in addition to what I listed in my original query, namely:   
   - Nominals explicitly denoting part of a whole, e.g., Hebrew xelek ‘part (of)’. (vs. ‘all’)
   - a.   Quantifiers denoting a smallish quantity, e.g, Hebrewkcat ‘a little’. (vs. ‘much’)
   
   
   
   
   -                 b. Quantifiers denoting ‘a number of’, e.g., Hebrewkama, French quelques(uns) (vs. ‘many’)
   
   - Adjectives denoting an unidentified subset, ‘certain’, e.g., Fr certains (de) (vs. 'others’).
   - Existential construction ‘exist’, e.g, Chinese Yǒude shíhòu ‘sometimes’, lit. ‘there are times’ (vs. 'others').
Best,Mira

From: Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf of Christian Lehmann via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2025 12:25 PM
To: lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Weak scalar quantifiers (some) 
Dear Mira,

first, a request for conceptual clarification. You seem to be contrasting 'some' as a scalar quantifier to 'some' as a determiner. Is the latter the same as an indefinite pronoun?

Both can be pronominal, and my question doesn't care about this distinction:

Determiner: A: Would you like to buysome apples?

            B: Yes, can I havesome?

Scalar Quan: A: Would you like all the apples?

            B1: I'd likesome of them.

            B2:I'd likesome.

The main (almost absolute difference) is stress. Scalar quantifier is overwhelmingly stressed, determiner some isn't. Also, scalar quantifier favors subject (or topic position), while determinersome favors direct object position (data based on Santa Barbara Corpus, cited in a paper recently submitted).




Semantically/pragmatically: scalar quantifiersome profiles an upper-bounded quantity ('less than all'). Determiner someis oblivious to this question.




 

 Such forms as Engl. some, Latin aliquot etc. etc. are commonly used both as determiners and as pronouns s.s. (i.e., representing an NP). And if so, do you have a criterion to distinguish the quantifier from the pronoun? I am asking because they seem to be coded by the same forms and to have the same distribution in several languages.

Now, the standard German forms for the quantifier are einige and etliche. The etymological dictionary of German (https://www.dwds.de/d/wb-etymwb) categorizes both as indefinite pronouns. 

Would you use these forms in the counterpart of the scalar quantifier examples above? In both?




Einige is an adjectival derivation in -ig of the baseein 'one'. Interestingly, the derivation allows the word to be plural despite the meaning of its base, which reminds one of the grammaticalization fate ofuno/unos in Spanish. Etliche comprises a formative et- of unclear indefinite function and -- to my mind more plausibly than an adjectival derivation in-lich -- a reduced form of the indefinite pronoun welche 'some' (< 'which'). So these German quantifiers are clearly based on indefinite forms.

A better year to everybody,

Christian
--
Prof. em. Dr. Christian Lehmann
Rudolfstr. 4
99092 Erfurt
Deutschland

| Tel.: | +49/361/2113417 |
| E-Post: | christianw_lehmann at arcor.de |
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