[Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm

Fri Mar 27 11:04:24 UTC 2026

Hi all,

I think it's pretty clear that demonstratives may convey emotive 
meaning. I wonder to what extent that answers Adam's original question 
though.

An additional element of those 'socially inappropriate' uses could be 
taboo -- 'he/they did that (thing)', or just 'he/they that-ed'.

@Adam: Would you have an example for us?

Best,
Volker

On 3/27/26 05:06, Juergen Bohnemeyer via Lingtyp wrote:
> Dear all — I suspect that some of the examples discussed in this 
> thread are primarily recognitional rather than inherently negative.
>
> Take Sebastian’s example, /Immer dieser Michel/. What motivates 
> recognitional deixis in this case is notoriety. Notoriety in turn is 
> commonly associated with negative connotation. However, there are 
> plenty of instances where /dies/ is used recognitionally with positive 
> connotation. To cite one example (begging all German speakers’ 
> forgiveness preemptively for the groan factor) from a popular goofy, 
> shlocky 1970’s song:
>
> /Dieser Wuchs, diese Kraft /
> /weckt in mir die Leidenschaft/
> /
> /
> (May I please not translate this? Thank you!)
>
> Now, this is not to say that there aren’t true examples of social 
> distancing conveyed by deixis. In fact, one might hypothesize that the 
> proximity/distance metaphor for (lack of) 
> familiarity/solidarity/shared in-group membership is itself a universal.
>
> For instance, Hanks (2005: 206) notes that whenever a Yucatec adult 
> scolds a child, they will use distal deixis, even if the addressee is 
> spatially close enough to the speaker to warrant proximal use. Since 
> this is exophoric reference, a recognitional analysis is out of the 
> question.
>
> Best — Juergen
>
> Hanks, W. (2005). Explorations in the deictic field. /Current 
> Anthropology / 46(2): 191-220.
>
> Juergen Bohnemeyer (He/Him)
> Professor, Department of Linguistics
> University at Buffalo
>
> Office: 642 Baldy Hall, UB North Campus
> Mailing address: 609 Baldy Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260
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>
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>
> There’s A Crack In Everything - That’s How The Light Gets In
> (Leonard Cohen)
>
> -- 
>
> *From: *Lingtyp <lingtyp-bounces at listserv.linguistlist.org> on behalf 
> of Annemarie Verkerk via Lingtyp <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Date: *Thursday, March 26, 2026 at 14:15
> *To: *lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org 
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Lingtyp] [EXTERN] Lingtyp Digest, Vol 138, Issue 11
>
> Thanks Adam for raising the question and Sebastian for writing about
> German.
> Dutch is like German but it seems, at least in the speech of some, to go
> further. I have been puzzled by this for years, that is, the use of
> 'die' in front of human proper nouns, to signal either social distance
> (almost something like kin/non-kin) and/or a 'very slight disapproval'
> of the person mentioned.
>
> I don't have further answers though!
>
> Cheers,
> Annemarie
>
> On 2026/03/26 13:00, lingtyp-request at listserv.linguistlist.org wrote:
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> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >     1. Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
> >     2. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Arnold Zwicky)
> >     3. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Adam James Ross Tallman)
> >     4. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Sebastian Nordhoff)
> >     5. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Christoph Holz)
> >     6. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (PONSONNET Maia)
> >     7. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Pier Marco Bertinetto)
> >     8. Re: Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> >        (Alex Francois)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 15:31:48 +0100
> > From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> > To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> > <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > Subject: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social norm
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAK0T6OihWPgP8BWUYbb745wD0QAn6XKHgkTrXGijfAdBADummg at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do 
> something) that
> > deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty 
> preliminary
> > description, so I'm open to other ideas and reconceptualizations. I 
> call it
> > 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, it doesn't tend to have this 
> meaning.
> >
> >
> >
> > adnominal
> >
> > adverbial
> >
> > verb
> >
> > proximate
> >
> > *naa*
> >
> > *n?a*
> >
> > *n?ka*
> >
> > distal
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toa*
> >
> > *toka*
> >
> > more distal
> >
> > *oa*
> >
> > *oa~oka*
> >
> > *oka*
> >
> > At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >
> > I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> > another language? Let me know.
> >
> > best,
> >
> > Adam
> > --
> > Adam J.R. Tallman
> > CNRS, Sedyl
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 07:54:11 -0700
> > From: Arnold Zwicky <arnold.zwicky at gmail.com>
> > To: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> > Cc: Linguistic Typology <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> >        norm
> > Message-ID: <733BC761-0BA2-4D63-8822-0DFCC3B4F13B at gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;     charset=us-ascii
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 25, 2026, at 7:31 AM, Adam James Ross Tallman via Lingtyp 
> <lingtyp at listserv.linguistlist.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do 
> something) that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a 
> pretty preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and 
> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal marker, 
> it doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> > ..
> >> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar 
> in another language? Let me know.
> > his isn't very helpful, but I have a recolletion of remote distal 
> demonstratives being cited in several languages, though I can't now 
> find atual citations. (I suffer from having lost all my files and also 
> library access, so I have only my very aged and imperfect memory.)
> >
> > Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2026 16:13:40 +0100
> > From: Adam James Ross Tallman <ajrtallman at utexas.edu>
> > To: "LINGTYP at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG"
> > <LINGTYP at listserv.linguistlist.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Lingtyp] Demonstratives to mean deviation from social
> >        norm
> > Message-ID:
> > <CAK0T6OheH-EqwExzuzmL1L+5s+95zp6aLrGbzWdV_7TTLEya=Q at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > Sorry just to clarify ... I meant not just cases of "out of vision"
> > demonstratives, but cases where demonstratives mean something about 
> social
> > inappropriateness or dissonance.
> >
> > A.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 25, 2026 at 3:31?PM Adam James Ross Tallman <
> > ajrtallman at utexas.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> In Chacobo there seems to be a demonstrative that means "do something)
> >> that deviates from socially normal expectations". This is a pretty
> >> preliminary description, so I'm open to other ideas and
> >> reconceptualizations. I call it 'more distal', as an adnominal 
> marker, it
> >> doesn't tend to have this meaning.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> adnominal
> >>
> >> adverbial
> >>
> >> verb
> >>
> >> proximate
> >>
> >> *naa*
> >>
> >> *n?a*
> >>
> >> *n?ka*
> >>
> >> distal
> >>
> >> *toa*
> >>
> >> *toa*
> >>
> >> *toka*
> >>
> >> more distal
> >>
> >> *oa*
> >>
> >> *oa~oka*
> >>
> >> *oka*
> >>
> >> At base the morpheme seems to mean "out of vision", but not always.
> >>
> >> I was wondering whether anyone had written about something similar in
> >> another language? Let me know.
> >>
> >> best,
> >>
> >> Adam
> >> --
> >> Adam J.R. Tallman
> >> CNRS, Sedyl
> >>
> >>
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