11.1623, Disc: Writing and Speech
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LINGUIST List: Vol-11-1623. Wed Jul 26 2000. ISSN: 1068-4875.
Subject: 11.1623, Disc: Writing and Speech
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1)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:09:50 EDT
From: Nitti45 at aol.com
Subject: Re: 11.1614, Disc: Writing and Speech
2)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:11:48 GMT
From: "A.F. GUPTA" <engafg at ARTS-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 11.1620, Disc: Writing and Speech
-------------------------------- Message 1 -------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:09:50 EDT
From: Nitti45 at aol.com
Subject: Re: 11.1614, Disc: Writing and Speech
Dear Linguist:
In a message dated 7/25/00 7:52:30 AM, Michael Lewis writes:
>Surely the genesis of spelling anomalies in English arises, above all,
>from
>
>its "rich and varied" parenthood.
"Above all"? I think that just might be stretching things a bit. While
there is no room whatever for any dispute about the "'rich and varied'
parenthood" of English, it seems a bit much to assert that this is the
primary reason for the abundance of spelling anomalies in this language.
There are several reasons why I take this position.
First of all, let us briefly view some 'families' of English spelling
anomalies. One of the most vexing of these for the learner is the "-ough"
group: Say, "bough," "rough," "through," "cough," "dough," and observe that
not one of these words sounds like any of the others. The funny thing is,
these are all native Anglo-Saxon words, not products of "rich and varied"
foreign borrowings.
While we're at it, how about looking at some differently pronounced
homograph pairs, e.g., "wind," "wound," "tear," "sow," "row," "lead," to name
a few. Again, these are all native Anglo-Saxon words; there is not a single
exotic transplant among them.
I have never thought to take a count, and of course it is far beyond the
scope of this discussion to essay that here, but I am inclined to think that
at least a plurality, and possibly even the majority, of English spelling
anomalies occur in native Anglo-Saxon words. Maybe someone out there has
this information at hand. If so, I should like very much to see it added to
this discussion. This is not to say that foreign borrowings (chiefly Norman
French, Latin, and Greek) did not make a significant contribution to the
'anomaly pool,' if you will, but merely to suggest that our own native stock
of words is being underestimated as a source of these anomalies. Of course,
I am speaking here of words one might encounter in general conversation, and
not bodies of highly esoteric jargon--the latter would throw things out of
balance, I am sure.
Second, let us quote Prof. Lewis a bit further:
At the time printing (with its potential
>
>for the propagation of "standard" forms) developed, there were many
>
>different varieties of spoken English (as, indeed, there still are).
This is quite plausible as an argument in favor of Prof. Lewis' position,
until one does a bit of comparison of English to some other European
languages and cultures. Think of the great number of dialects of High German
that existed then, and still exist now, most of which are unintelligible to
one who speaks only Standard High German. Yet German spelling has few
anomalies. With respect to Italian, there is an even greater number of
nonstandard dialects, likewise unintelligible to one who knows only
'textbook' Italian; if anything, Italian spelling has even fewer anomalies
than does that of High German.
Now admittedly, neither German nor Italian boasts of the "'rich and
varied' parenthood" of English but then, that issue has already been dealt
with under point number one. Be that as it may, it will be dealt with again,
under point number three.
The reader may recall my entry in *Linguist* 11.1606 under this
discussion, to which Prof. Lewis directed his response in #11.1614. For the
sake of this third point, I shall repeat a portion of that entry here:
"Now here is something about which I should like to hear from anyone with
a background in Celtic linguistics in general, and Irish Gaelic
in particular. I have heard it said that the only language that
rivals English for sheer numbers of spelling anomalies is Irish
Gaelic. I do not know firsthand if this is true or not. From
what little I have observed of the language, I find the assertion
at least plausible. If indeed it is true, then it certainly can't be
because of its having been "thrust into the media" as a world
language. Would any experts in this field be so good as to join this
discussion? Specifically, would they answer these two questions: 1)
Is the abovementioned assertion true? If so, then 2) What, in your
judgment, would account for this fact?"
Since I posed this pair of questions I have received, by direct response
to my email address, a confirmation that the answer to the first question I
posed in that issue is definitely in the affirmative, at least for what
concerns European languages. I have yet to see, either in this discussion or
via private correspondence, any answer to the second question. While I
honestly do not know just what that answer might be, I daresay that I do know
what it is *not.* As limited as my knowledge of Celtic linguistics is, I
know for a fact that, like German and Italian, Irish Gaelic has not the
"'rich and varied' parenthood" that English has. It *does,* however, have a
comparable number of spelling inconsistencies.
In conclusion, let me emphasize here that I am not trying to say that
Prof. Lewis' position has no merit; that were a manifestly untrue statement.
What I am saying is that it is in my judgment an error to ascribe the
anomalies of English spelling "above all" to the hybrid nature of English
vocabulary. It is undeniably a significant factor; I simply do not think
that it is hands down the most important one.
Cordially yours,
Richard S.
Kaminski
<Nitti45 at aol.com>
-------------------------------- Message 2 -------------------------------
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:11:48 GMT
From: "A.F. GUPTA" <engafg at ARTS-01.NOVELL.LEEDS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 11.1620, Disc: Writing and Speech
Hi Benji -- I don't really want to return to languages existing
or not.
But, rather unphilosophically, what really strikes me about
this discussion is how it has concentrated on orthography. It seems
to me that there are many other (perhaps more interesting?) ways in
which writing and speech differ, partly due to the demands of
the medium, and partly due to less intrinsic traditions. Some of
these things areconveniently discussed in Rebecca Hughes's (1995) *
English in Speech and Writing*. ( London / New York: Routledge.)
Let's look at where writing began (someone said this earlier), in
business.
sheepskin 23
winejar 52
oliveoil (1st) 326
oliv oil (2nd) 129
This does not correspond to any *spoken* text at all -- it is pure
written.
The danger is that we highly literate types start thinking that this
gulf doesn't matter and, as a result, as varous people have said, all
our grammars (yes, and our concept of 'a language') are centred on
the concept of written language.
But why did we move so much to orthography? That's the puzzle...
PS:? Benji said " it seems that
> formulating "existence" in such a way that languages don't "exist"
> because they go beyond individual nervous systems (if that's what
> Anthea really had in mind)....."
it wasn't -- I'm a sociolinguist and not much into individual
nervous systems. I mean (in a post modernist or Le Page or Dixon
sort of way) that languages are social constructs defined as such by
their speakers in a socio-politico-linguistic setting, rather than
being clearly definable linguistic entities.
Anthea
* * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Anthea Fraser GUPTA : http://www.leeds.ac.uk/english/staff/pages/gupta.html
School of English
University of Leeds
LEEDS LS2 9JT
UK
* * * * * * * * * * * *
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