LL-L: "Orthography" [S] LOWLANDS-L, 01.JUN.1999 (03)

Tue Jun 1 23:39:39 UTC 1999

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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at jmt.prestel.co.uk>
Subject: Re: LL-L: "Orthography" [S] LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.1999 (01)

Ian - I hae juist haen a keik at the Linguistic Atlas of Scotland (LAS)
vol. 3, i the section at haes adae wi N. Ireland, an as faur as I can see
(juist frae a quick keik mynd, maistly at ensamples frae Co. Doun) I wad
jalouse at the seituation is as follaes:

BEET-type words is sayed 'ee' [i] in N.I., juist like in Scotland.

BAIT-type an MATE-type words is sayed 'ai' [e].

BEAT-type words oscillates atween mergin thegither wi BEET-type words an
BAIT-type words - i.e. thay'r sayed 'ee' [i] in some airts an 'ai' [e] in
ithers. Mairatower, the'r some airts at some o thaim is sayed [i] an some o
thaim [e]. Aa this differs kythes in ensamples frae Co. Doun.

Houaniver, BEET words - like _seen_, _scene_ an _been_ - seems ti be sayed
[i] in aa the airts (at I leukit at, oniewey).

Seems likely, than, at AE in BEET words like _seem_, _been_ an _scene_ is a
fause analogy wi the [e] variant at kythes some airts in BEAT words.
(Unless the'r some ither explanation, like at [i] is realised different in
NI frae Scotland; or at Ulster Scots speakers realises it different frae
the wey thay div whan thay'r speakin English; or at the BEET words is sayed
[e] in some airts I hinna leukit at).

Ithergates, the phonology o differin by-leids o Ullans anent thir phonemes
seems ti me ti be gey like whit kythes atween differein by-leids o Scots in
Scotland, whaur BEAT type words oscillates atween BEET an BAIT the same
wey. A hael fouth o BEAT-type words - wheat, heat, swear, bread, head, bean
- is recordit i LAS(3) wi [i] in some airts an [e] in ithers.

Sandy wrate:
>>
>A tend tae agree that Andy's spellin is the maist acceptable o the twae, tho
>juist wi hou the spellins generally faa nearer the tradeitional anes.

Exactly - somethin at's no taen eneuch tent o. A mair tradeitional spellin
still, an aye haudin wi the diaphonemic ettle, wad be:

EE an IE in BEET words - e.g. <beet>, <leet> but <niest>, <viesion>,
<scrieve>, <spier> (e.g. afore VE, R, an for Latin I whan stresst.)

EI an AE (or EA) in BEAT words - e.g. <heid>, <breid>, <hael>, <rael>

Aa thae is fameiliar eneuch spellins, an keeps the sinderin atween the BEAT
words, at wad need a diaphonemic spellin, an the BEET, BAIT an MATE words,
at disna.
>
>Houaniver, ma ideas aboot _practical_ spellin seestems hiv chynged a fair
>bit fae A last haed a shot at makkin a orthography - hivin feinished (weel,
>vernear) the first screive o a novel in Scots fae syne, aa A'm interestit in
>is what orthography'll _sell_!
>
>It's a peity, but it seems tae me that until the government or somelike lay
>doun the rules as tae a offeicial spellin, the spellin that maist writers'll
>uize'll be the ane maist readers'll read - an for the nou that means a
>fairly ad hoc orthography - it's what fowk's uized wi. A try tae some extent
>tae gaun like you an Andy suggest an as faur as "purely Scots" words gauns
>it's nae bather - the trouble starts, as uizual, whan ye try an write a word
>fae the shared Scots/English vocabular. Efter a page o'd ye can see richt
>awa that ye'v written something that vernear aa o the 1.5 million Scots
>spaekers'll tak ae keik at an pit richt back on the shelf. Syne hivin gien
>in tae that, A micht as weel gie in tae a rowth o kenspeckle tradeitional
>Scots spellins an aa, for the sake o sales.

Ay, weel, but mair nor ae type o Scots spellins is kenspeckle. The anes
abuin is maistly kenspeckle (e.g. EI is faur mair estaiblished in BEAT
words like _heid_ an _breid_ nor in BEET anes like _leet_ an _speir_, whaur
the spellin _spier_ is gey common tae - e.g. in Scotscrieve); but thay
still hae science ahint thaim (diaphonemic, an nae mair nor ae phoneme ti
ae spellin), an sae the potential ti mak a inclusive spellin ti serr
sindrie by-leids. The trouble wi some ither ettles is at thay'r _naither_
scienteific _nor_ kenspeckle - for ensample, the writin o _leit_ (a BEET
word) an _heid_ (a BEAT word) baith wi EI taks nae tent o the differin
springheid, at's aye ti the fore in some by-leids; an sae is juist
emphasisin the pronunciation o the maist widespreid dialects an - maistly
throu the fash ti sinder frae English spellin - missin the chance ti mak a
mair inclusive orthography. Scots spellin maun be a compromise atween
kenspeckleness an conseistency. The trouble haes aye been at thaim at
ettles at ae-soond-ti-ae-spellin conseistency (whiles wi a gey cogglie
norie o whit kynd o 'soond' thay'r speakin aboot) scunners ithers, at than
assumes at onie kynd o conseistency ava is incompatible wi kenspeckleness,
an at thairfor only raivelment can work.

Mairatower, the recogneition o differin springheids as a criterion in
spellin dis awa wi the prablem o the etymological spellins o words like
_station_. In a system at ettles at ae-soond-ti-ae-spellin conseistency,
the'r a inevitable inclination ti uise spellins like _staishun_, an sae
the'r a constant tension atween the spellins o 'Scots' words an ithers;
whaurbyes the introduction o etymological (like -AA for aulder -ALL, an
aiblins ither kenspeckle rules-o-thoum, like IE afore V) differs i the
spellin o ae soond i the unique Scots vocabular wad lat the Latinate vocab
be regairdit as anither category, sae thay wadna stick oot like sair thoums
the same.

John M. Tait.

----------

From: Andrew Eagle <K27 at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" [S]

John Wrat:

> Andy's system:
>
> EE for the BEET class - creep, sheep, weet, seek, greet, veesion, etc.
> EI for the BEAT class - beit, heit, heid, meit, deith, breith, feir, teim
> AI for the BAIT class - brain, main, aim, bait wait, said, raik, fair

Thon wis juist a suggestion. It isna ma intent tae uise siccan a seistem
for the-nou.

Sandy wrat:

>A tend tae agree that Andy's spellin is the maist acceptable o the twae,
tho
>juist wi hou the spellins generally faa nearer the tradeitional anes.

<sned>
> the spellin that maist writers'll
>uize'll be the ane maist readers'll read - an for the nou that means a
>fairly ad hoc orthography - it's what fowk's uized wi. A try tae some
extent
>tae gaun like you an Andy suggest an as faur as "purely Scots" words gauns
>it's nae bather - the trouble starts, as uizual, whan ye try an write a
word
>fae the shared Scots/English vocabular. Efter a page o'd ye can see richt
>awa that ye'v written something that vernear aa o the 1.5 million Scots
>spaekers'll tak ae keik at an pit richt back on the shelf. Syne hivin gien
>in tae that, A micht as weel gie in tae a rowth o kenspeckle tradeitional
>Scots spellins an aa, for the sake o sales.
<sned>

A'll continue tae uise a kin o ad hoc orthography  for the-nou for the
verra raisons Sandy gies. A'll juist ettle tae applee the thochts that wis
pitten ower mair conseistant whan it comes tae 'Scots' wirds. Gin 'shared'
wirds is pronounced mair or less the same in Scots an SSE A'll haud wi the
kent spellins.

Andy

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