LL-L: "Orthography" [D/E] LOWLANDS-L, 24.MAY.1999 (01)

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.MAY.1999 (01) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Ian James Parsley" <I.J.Parsley at newcastle.ac.uk>
Subject: Orthography

True Sandy, but that ultimately still doesn't take away the fact that
the debate concerning orthography, grammar or whatever of Geordie is
not (at the moment) anything like as developed (or common, if you
prefer) as it is with Scots. Linguistic research into "Tyneside
English" is not rare, but while Geordies are keenly aware of their
dialect, in my experience (which is quite a lot) they don't concern
themselves that much with the inticacies of it all.
--------
Ian.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/1677

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From: Jan Ter Ellen <Jan at spherical-group.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Orthography

> Ian James Parsley wrote
>
> Could well be something to do with that, Hauke, but I also think it's
> something to do with German dialects being accepted rather higher up
> the social scale than English dialects. I've yet to see Asterix in
> Geordie, for example! Such things increase awareness and acceptance
> of dialects and are much more advanced "im deutschen Sprachraum" than
> in the English-speaking world.
>
        1) Nederlands
        Als Nederlander wonend in de UK, verbaas ik me er telkens weer
over dat zware lokale accenten hier algemeen geaccepteerd worden, zelfs
hoog op de sociale ladder.  George Robinson in Blair's kabinet spreekt
met een onmiskenbaar Schots accent.  Een van mijn zakenrelaties in
Londen (Managing Director van een miljarden bedrijf) doet geen enkele
moeite om zijn Geordie accent te verdoezelen.

        In Nederland daarentegen worden lokale accenten niet erg op
prijs gesteld. In de zeventiger jaren hadden we Eerste Minister Van Agt,
die het mikpunt was van veel grappen, niet zozeer vanwege zijn politieke
daden maar omdat hij een "zachte /g/" had.  Mijnheer Koekoek van de
Boerenpartij werd niet serieus genomen, niet in het minst omdat hij
"niet eens fatsoenlijk Nederlands" sprak.  Er zijn weinig mensen in
Nederland die het met een zwaar lokaal accent ver schoppen in het
politieke of zakenleven.

        2) English
        As a Dutchman living in the UK, I observe that heavy local
accents are very much accepted, even high up the social scale.  George
Robinson in Tony Blair's government speaks with a very strong Scottish
accent.  One of my business associates in London  (Managing Director of
a multi-billion pound company) doesn't even try to hide his Geordie
accent.

        In The Netherlands, on the other hand, local accents are barely
acceptable.  In the Seventies, our Prime Minister Van Agt was often
ridiculed, not so much because of his policies but because he spoke with
a "soft /g/".  MP Koekoek, leader of the Farmers Party wasn't taken
seriously because he "couldn't even speak proper Dutch".  Very few
people in The Netherlands obtain important functions in public or
business life, if they speak Dutch with an accent.

        Jan ter Ellen

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From: "Andrew" <andrewbe at dove.net.au>
Subject: Orthography

>From: "Ian James Parsley" <I.J.Parsley at newcastle.ac.uk>
>Subject: Orthography
>
>> Contrary to the theories suggested, Geordies could easily write to each
>> other in Geordie (but perhaps, like many native Scots speakers, just
don't
>> see the point of it), and a thorough grasp of English orthography is
still
>> by far the easiest and most reliable start to communicating in Geordie,
or
>> in Scots, on paper!
>
>This takes us back to the original point that my two Viennese
>friends, who could just as easily have written to each other in
>standard German, chose to do so in Wienerisch. Having spent most of
>my time in Newcastle upon Tyne (home of Geordie) for the past four
>years, I've yet to come across that phenomenon in Newcastle. Two
>Geordies e-mailing each other do so in Geordie, and actually it's not
>even a good idea to attempt to e-mail them in Geordie - they'll get
>offended!
>
>Ian.

I take your point Ian about people taking offence at attempting to write to
them or speak to them in their dialect.
I offended a  Scottish women by attempting to speak Scots to her (badly I
might add).  Fortunately we were quite friendly and the matter was quickly
cleared up.  I think this must represent years of being patronised on TV
etc.

I asked a Scottish secretary at work about Lowlands Scots.  She is from
Glasgow and she initially thought I meant swearing and being crude.  She
hasn't lived in Scotland for some years and so my have missed out on the
more recent revival/recognition movement.

My final anecdote is of discussing which  region in Scotland  people come
from  with a middle aged senior academic who was born in well to do family
in a large Scottish city.  The brief discussion was around the different
dialect words.  I asked this person what word they used for small children
wanes or barnes etc. (?spelling).  I was reassured that they certainly did
not use any of those type of words.

The point of these anecdotes is to highlight the class differences and
attitudes of some native Scots to their language and the need to be tactful
about the strong feelings associated with the language.

Andrew Beckwith

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