LL-L: "Conjunctions" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 21.MAY.1999 (06)
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Fri May 21 22:01:54 UTC 1999
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L O W L A N D S - L * 21.MAY.1999 (06) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachian, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian,
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rharmsen at knoware.nl>
Subject: Conjunctions
Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
>Alfred says:
>[>I've also read that the use of Dutch 'als' in these cases is becoming
> >increasingly more common, at least in colloquial Dutch. Can
>anyone
> >comment on this?
It is common (although I don't say "als" myself), but not or hardly
increasingly so. Both "dan" and "als" have a very long history in
Dutch, which is why "als" is now often considered a correct variant
also in standard language.
(Afrikaans examples)
> (Julle is groter as hy)
> (Julle is groter dan hy*)
There is modern Dutch tendency to say "as hem" here. As is becoming
a proposition rather than a conjunction. Cf. English in the respect.
--
Ruud Harmsen - http://utopia.knoware.nl/~rharmsen/
----------
From: Alfred Brothers <alfredb at erols.com>
Subject: Conjunctions
Elsie Zinsser wrote:
> Firstly, I thought the Du. _dan_ correlates with G. _dann_(or _als)
> rather than _denn_ which I understand as meaning E. _because_. Is this a
> Pennsylvanian 'Dutch' slip? It interests me because I've noticed the same
> confusion amongst German speakers when talking English.
All true, but I was referring to the use of standard G. 'denn' in the
expression 'größer/kleiner/freundlicher...denn je.' I should have made that
clearer.
(Ron: What is the Low Saxon translation of 'denn je' in this construction?)
> In Afrikaans you would hear _groter/kleiner as_ and _groter/kleiner
> dan_.
> The _dan_ ones seem to be on the decrease. The examples with the
> asterisks 'sound' wrong:
> (Julle is groter as hy)
> (Julle is groter dan hy*)
> (*Julle het dan meer dan ek gekry)
> (Jy is vetter as ek) (*Jy is vetter dan ek)
> (Hierdie lapgoed is mooier as daardie)
> (Hierdie lapgoed is mooier dan daardie)
Someone else mentioned that the use of 'dan' here tends to be used by older
generations of Afrikaans speakers as well as in some other Afr. dialects. Do
you find this to be true, also?
> In some speech variants in Afrikaans the /d/ phoneme in _dat_ becomes a
> /l/ as in:
> (Hy sê lat hy eers met sy ma daaroor wil praat)
> (Sy het gesê lat sy wel gaan kom)
That's quite interesting. Wonder how that came about?
Thanks, Elsie. Thanks also to the others who've responded in separate
postings.
Alfred Brothers
----------
From: "Fred van Brederode" <leijraad at tref.nl>
Subject: Conjunctions
>G. _Ich will nach Hause, denn ich bin muede_ is translated
>E. _I want to go home *then I am tired_ AND
>G. _Ich will nach Hause, weil ich muede bin_ becomes
>E. _I want to go home *while I am tired_
This reminds me of my schooldays, where foreign languages (we had three)
easily get mixed up. The assignment the teacher of German gave, was to tell
something about your family. One of the class mates wrote:
".... wir haben also eine Katze..."
Alfred says:
>I've also read that the use of Dutch 'als' in these cases is becoming
>increasingly more common, at least in colloquial Dutch. Can
>anyone comment on this? Apparently Afrikaans and most dialects of
>Frisian also use only some form of 'as', as well.]
It seems all very true. 'Groter dan' instead of 'groter als', is the
schoolteachers way. We were trained in school to pick the right solution. I
would never say or write 'groter als' anymore. Perhaps this was also
invented by 17th century grammarians. The same is true for the (discussed
earlier) matter of 'hun' versus 'zij'. The sentence 'hun gaan naar school'
in stead of (the 'right') 'zij gaan naar school', seems to be more or less
accepted, even among 'good speakers'. So why wouldn’t we get away with
'groter als' for that matter.
There must be other lowlanders who can better comment on that.
Gr. Fred van Brederode
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at geocities.com>
Subject: Conjunctions
Alfred asked:
> (Ron: What is the Low Saxon translation of 'denn je' in this construction?)
Hmm ... I'm not really sure, Alfred. I don't even know if you *can* say
anything close to it. I have a feeling you'd express it paraphrastically
somehow, maybe something like _Dat ferbinden is nuu beter a(l)s bit her tou._
(_Dat Verbinnen is nu beter a(l)s bitherto._) "The connection is now better than
hitherto" = 'The connection is now better than ever.'; cf. German _Die
Verbindung ist jetzt besser denn je._
However, I can imagine some people using the same _denn je_, since both words
happen the same in Low Saxon of Germany, though I'm not aware of _denn_ being in
the sense of 'than' in Low Saxon, only in the sense of 'then' and also
'thereupon'.
Perhaps someone else can add to this.
Incidentally, about Low Saxon _a(l)s_: it can mean the following (as well as
'when' (German _als_) in some contexts):
'LIKE' (German _wie_); e.g.,
Hei dait dat soo a(l)s ik (dat dou).
(He deit dat so a(l)s ik (dat do).)
"He does it so as I (do it)."
He does it like I do. He does it like me.
German: Er tut es (so) wie ich (es tue).
Hei is soo groot as ik (dat buen).
(He is so groot as ik (dat bün).)
"He is so big/tall as I (am it)."
He is as tall as me.
German: Er ist so groß wie ich.
'THAN' (German _als_); e.g.
Hei dait dat beter as ik (dat dou).
(He deit dat beter as ik (dat do).)
"He does it better than I (do it)."
He does it better than I do. He does it better than me.
German: Er tut es besser als ich (es tue).
Hei is groetter a(l)s ik (dat buen).
(He is grötter a(l)s ik (dat bün).)
"He is bigger/taller than I (am it)."
He is taller than I/me.
German: Er ist größer als ich.
Because of that, Low Saxon speakers tend to have problems distinguishing German
_wie_ and _als_ and tend to use _wie_ in both contexts, as do speakers of
Missingsch (i.e., German on Low Saxon substrate) and speakers of
Missingsch-based German. So they would render the above German sentences as
follows:
Northern Standard
1. Er tut das (so) wie ich (das tu). Er tut es (so) wie ich (es tue).
2. Er ist so groß wie ich. Er ist so groß wie ich.
3. Er tut das besser wie ich (das tue). Er tut es besser als ich (es tue).
4. Er ist größer wie ich.* Er ist größer als ich.
* Understood from Standard German as "He is taller like me" rather than the
intended "He is taller than me."
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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