LL-L: "Orthography" [E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 21.MAY.1999 (07)

Fri May 21 23:18:45 UTC 1999

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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at jmt.prestel.co.uk>
Subject: Orthography

Ian wrate:

>John,
>
>Words such as "seen" and "keen" tend to be spelled AE in Ulster - I
>wonder is that because of an older phonology? I would pronounce the
>vowel in "saen" (Eng. "seen") differently from in "reik" (Scottish
>Scots "reek") - could there be any historical basis for this, or am I
>maybe being misled by numerous Ulster writers who use these
>spellings?
>
>Unfortunately phonology is far from a speciality of mine so I cannot
>answer these questions.

I'v nae idea, Ian - soonds like a job for Andy! In Scottish Scots it's
uisually the cless o words at haes EA in English - like _bread_ an _head_ -
at haes an AE [e] pronunciation in some by-leids, but a [i] pronunciation
in ithers. Words at haes EE in English is maistly said 'ee' [i] in aa Scots
by-leids, as faur's I ken. In my ain variety o Shetlandic - whaur monie sic
words wi EA in English haes the [e] pronunciation - e.g. 'haed' raither nor
'heid'; 'aet' raither nor 'eat' - words wi EE in English is maistly said
'ee' [i] tae. This maun gang back ti the oreiginal disteinction (I think it
wis atween [E] spelled EA an [e] spelled EE) at kythed the differ atween EA
an EE spellins in English, but I canna see hou this cuid laed (that's ane o
thaim!) til words wi EE in English comin ti be sayed [e] in Ulster, but
words like 'reik' bein sayed [i]. (Unless it's juist words wi followin -N,
or some condeition like that.)

Aiblins gin ye wis ti post this on Ullans, Philip or somebodie wad ken mair
aboot it.

John.

----------

From: "Sandy Fleming" <sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Orthography

> From:  "Hauke Wiebe" <haukewiebe at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Language policies
>
> Moin,
>
> >"Ian James Parsley" <I.J.Parsley at newcastle.ac.uk>
> >Yes, the point being that one Geordie would write very differently from
> >another, even if they both understood each other. Whereas I noticed my
> >Austrian friend e-mailing home on a recent visit to
> >Northern Ireland in Wienerisch and receiving a reply with the same
> >orthography, moreorless.
> >--------Ian.
>
> Could this phenomenon not be explained by the fact that German spelling is
> much closer to the way word s are spoken then english spelling.

Have we established that there is such a phenomenon, i.e. that two Geordies
would write very differently from each other?

Actually, there are a fair number of small publications in Geordie to be
found in the Newcastle area, and the spelling conventions are fairly simple
adaptations of English orthography, much simpler and more easily agreed upon
than in Scots, Scots having both a wider range of dialects to deal with and
a greater historical burden of orthographic shilly-shallying.

Geordies favour, for example, "ee" for the [i] sound when not found in
standard English (neet, breet, reet = night, bright, right) where in Scots
it's necessary to try & decide between "ei", "ie" & "ee" (weel, bield,
sweir).

Probably the only serious spelling variant in Geordie is between those who
say an open "a" and those who say it more closed. Some writers will favour
the spelling "aa" as opposed to "au" (initial & medial) or "aw" (final),
e.g. "aad" or "aud" (old), "knaa" or "knaw" (know), "snaa" or "snaw" (snow)
&c.

One thing Geordie writers seem inconsistent about is how to spell the
typical Geordie [E:] ending: they may either try to express the actual long
open sound and write, e.g. "tweh" (two), but again, most settle for
following the English standard as closely as possible and using just an "e"
in place of the English vowel, e.g. "twe".

Nothing here is in any sense a communication problem.

Contrary to the theories suggested, Geordies could easily write to each
other in Geordie (but perhaps, like many native Scots speakers, just don't
see the point of it), and a thorough grasp of English orthography is still
by far the easiest and most reliable start to communicating in Geordie, or
in Scots, on paper!

Sandy Fleming
http:\\www.fleimin.demon.co.uk

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