LL-L: "Phonology" (was "Web resources") LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (04) [E]

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From: gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu
Subject: LL-L: "Web resources" LOWLANDS-L, 10.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

Ron Hahn wrote:

> LS Uutfaart (MLS>Sw. utfart 'exit' <> D. uitvaart 'funeral'

This makes a trip on the Autobahn for us Dutch such a macabre
experience: at each and every exit there are signs for an on-
going funeral.  This may be a feeble excuse for our less than
stellar reputation in Autobahn driving. ;-)

> The authors also included orthographic false friends, where the
pronunciation
> is not the same, especially Swedish voiced <v> vs Dutch devoiced <v>; e.g.
Sw.
> <vänster> 'left' vs Dutch <venster> 'window' (= Sw. <fönster> < MLS

I would not call the'v' in Dutch <venster> de-voiced; unlike the
Dutch 'f', the 'v' *is* voiced, but unlike in Swedish it is a
fricative.  Pronouncing the 'v' in <venster> de-voiced would be
a sign of a Frisian or Amsterdam accent.

Gustaaf

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Web resources

Hoi, Gustaaf!

You wrote:

> This makes a trip on the Autobahn for us Dutch such a macabre
> experience: at each and every exit there are signs for an on-
> going funeral.

Macabre not only for Dutch speakers, Gustaaf.  Those freeways are scary to me
also, and reportedly also to many Americans, mostly due to "insane" driving
styles on what to North Americans standards seem narrow roads.

> I would not call the'v' in Dutch <venster> de-voiced; unlike the
> Dutch 'f', the 'v' *is* voiced, but unlike in Swedish it is a
> fricative.  Pronouncing the 'v' in <venster> de-voiced would be
> a sign of a Frisian or Amsterdam accent.

You got me all confused now.

Dutch <v> tends to be described as a "somewhat devoiced fricative," and to
non-Dutch ears, including mine, it tends to sound like [f] rather than like
[v].  Usually, /v/ *is* a fricative, in Swedish or whatever language, and it
is usually voiced (unless devoiced in certain environments).  (In Afrikaans
<v> is usually [f], though.)  So, when you say "but unlike in Swedish it is a
fricative," it makes no sense to me, because Swedish <v> is [v], clearly a
fricative.  I think you are comparing Dutch /v/ with Dutch /w/, the latter of
which is a labio-dental glide rather than a fricative.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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