LL-L: "Ogam & Occam" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 13.SEP.1999 (01)

Mon Sep 13 17:49:29 UTC 1999

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From: Christian Chiarcos [myrddin at cs.tu-berlin.de]
Subject: L-L: "Ogam & Occam" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 12.SEP.1999 (03)

> > From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
> Subject: Ogam and Occam
>
> In "Het Belang van Limburg" of Sept. 9 there was an article about the "Ogam"
> language, apparently originated from Dacia, ... or Shinar, or ..., bur once
> spoken, and written, in Ireland. Is there anything "less speculative" and
> "more scientific" written about this language? Does it share a similar lack
> of certainty with the Pict language.
>
> The name is somehow similar to a procedural computer language ("procedural"
> is generally used as opposite to "object oriented" when classifying computer
> languages) "Occam", or rather "Occam_2", that we once used for programming
> transputers (parallel computers) of CSA (Computer System Architects, Provo,
> Utah).
>
> Thanks for any feed-back.
> Roger

hi Roger,

although this has _nothing_ to do with lowland languages, a short reply:
ogam was an original Irish kind of script, the oldest examples of Irish
were written with it, so the name is used for the pre-Christian Irish
tongue, too.
after the Gaelic invasion in Scotland, the native caledonians used it, too. This
is
usually called _Pictish_.

quite good examples are given under

http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/ogam/

The Dacian origin seems to be a mistake, there once lived Celts, too, but there
was no close connection to Ogam Irish.

greetings,
christian

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Ogam & Occam"

> From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
> Subject: Ogam and Occam
>
> The name is somehow similar to a procedural computer language
> ("procedural"
> is generally used as opposite to "object oriented" when
> classifying computer
> languages) "Occam", or rather "Occam_2", that we once used for programming
> transputers (parallel computers) of CSA (Computer System
> Architects, Provo,
> Utah).

I'm pretty sure the Occam programming language was named after William of
Occam (or Ockham), who's famous for inventing the semi-scientific principle
of "Occam's Razor", which states that if several equally possible solutions
to a problem are known and you have no way of eliminating any, then the
simplest solution should be used until such a time as some other solution is
shown to be better. Like Murphy's Law, it's not part of scientific method,
but useful because of its generality.

I don't know anything about the Ogam/Occam language, although the "Og" bit
sounds tantalisingly Celtic! I wonder if the English town of "Ockham" from
which William is named has anything to do with the language word for the
language?

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

----------

From: Stefan Troester [troester at uni-wuppertal.de]
Subject: Ogam / Ogham

>From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
>Subject: Ogam and Occam
>
>In "Het Belang van Limburg" of Sept. 9 there was an article about the "Ogam"
>language, apparently originated from Dacia, ... or Shinar, or ..., bur once
>spoken, and written, in Ireland. Is there anything "less speculative" and
>"more scientific" written about this language? Does it share a similar lack
>of certainty with the Pict language.
>
Ogam (Ogham) is the script, simalar to runes, that was used in early Irish
times. The language that is represented by Ogham is sometimes called
Ogham-Irish. It is the a stage of Irish older than the Old Irish known from the
myths and legends and sagas. Since the use of script was not pratised by the
the Celtic scholars, it will be used under Christian influence. It is
considered to be a `fossil' stage of Irish, not representing language of the
time when it was written (4th -- 6th century). At least the early inscriptions
show archaic features not to find in Old Irish. Since the inscriptions are
basically personal names, we cannot say very much about the language of the
Ogham inscriptions.

The Alaphabet is a series of dots and strokes carved in corners of pieces of
wood and stones.

I don't know if the people with the procedural computer language had any ideas
about it (or is Occam any aronyme?), but the spelling Occam could actually be
influenced by Old Irish, there some changes from <c> to <g>, for example O.Ir.
_ocus_ `and', Modern Ir. _agus_ , O.Ir _ac, oc_ `at', Mod.Ir. _ag_ .

Every ideas of non Irish origin of Ogham should only be seeked concerning the
script.

regards,

Stefan

--
Stefan Troester, Projekt Galway-Dialekte, Tel.: 0202-439-2838
Fachbereich 4, Bergische Universitaet GH,  42097 Wuppertal
Privatadr.: Gewerbeschulstrasse 44, 42289 Wuppertal Tel.:0202-591933
troester at uni-wuppertal.de   fax:+49 202 439 2880 (fuer troester, O.11.37)

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