LL-L: "Phonology" [E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 13.SEP.1999 (02)
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Mon Sep 13 18:28:36 UTC 1999
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L O W L A N D S - L * 13.SEP.1999 (02) * ISSN 1089-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Berend Klönne [beronnie at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" [E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 12.SEP.1999 (05)
> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Phonology
>
> [The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]
>
> Leve Lüüd',
>
> Wo is dat nu mit dat "sch" ~ "sk" in't Neddersassische (Nedderdüütsche)?
Is dat
> akraat seggt, dat wat in annere Mundaarden "sch" is in de Mundaarden vun
> Oostfreesland (un ook vun welke in't Ollenborger Rebeed?) an'n Anfang vun
'n
> Woord "sch" un annerwegens "sk" is? T.B.:
>
> School = School
> twüschen = tüsken
> Minsch ~ Mensch = Minsk ~ Mensk
> düütsch = düütsk
>
> Gifft dat ook Mundaarden mit "sk-" (t.B. *"Skool")? Kümmt düt "sk" vun 'n
> freessch Substraat? Gifft 't dat ook buten Oostfreesland, ook in de
> neddersassischen Mundaarden vun de Nedderlannen?
>
> Ick dank för Juun Hölp.
>
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Hi, Folks!
>
> I'd like to get some help with the issue of "sch" ~ "sk" in Low Saxon (Low
> German)? Is it correct to say that consistent _sch_ [S] in other dialects
> corresponds to _sch_ [S] at the beginning of a word and to _sk_ [sk] in
other
> environments in the dialects of Eastern Friesland (and also some in the
> Oldenburg area?)? E.g.,
>
> School = School 'school'
> twüschen = tüsken 'between'
> Minsch ~ Mensch = Minsk ~ Mensk 'human being', 'person'
> düütsch = düütsk 'German' (adj.)
>
> Are there any dialects that have _sk-_ (e.g., _Skool_)? Is this _sk_ due
to a
> Frisian substrate? Is it also found in any dialects outside Eastern
Friesland,
> including the Low Saxon dialects of the Netherlands?
>
> Thanks for your help.
Reinhard/Ron,
Noch in 't Grunnings Drents of Twents, dus 't hiele Nedersaksische
Nederlanden komp de schriefwieze _sk_ veur.
De verschillen met de Drentse schriefwieze bint minimaol:
School = school, schoel of schoele
Tussen = tusken
Mens = meens of mensk (menske)
Duits = Duuts (Duutser)
Reinhard/Ron,
Ie kriegt de groeten uut 'de olde lantschap Drenthe'
Goed gaon,
Berend Klönne
beronnie at wxs.nl
http://home.wxs.nl/~beronnie/
----------
From: Gertrud [g.k.reershemius at aston.ac.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" [E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 12.SEP.1999 (05)
Moin Reinhard,
bi unds in Ostfreesland (in't Krummhörn) häjt dat
Schkaul
tüsken
Minske
düütsch
man ik wejt nejt of dat fan dej fräjs substrat kummen dajt.
Allebeerst - Gertrud
----------
From: Ruud van de Kruisweg [r.vdkruisweg at roc-ams.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" [E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 12.SEP.1999 (05)
>Are there any dialects that have _sk-_ (e.g., _Skool_)? Is this _sk_ due
to a
>Frisian substrate? Is it also found in any dialects outside Eastern
Friesland,
>including the Low Saxon dialects of the Netherlands?
I guess so. There's a popular Dutch rock band called Skik (=schik, "fun")
from the province of Drenthe who sing in the local Low Saxon dialect.
Here are a couple of their song lyrics:
Ik kan't nie wachten
'k Moet de schoenen poetsen veur da'k naor de kerke gao
'k Moet de stoep vegen iederiene kek der nao
Ik moet die acceptgiro's naor de bank hen brengen
En mien lidmaotschap van de bieb verlengen
Moet naor mien oma hen, die he'k te lang nie zien
Moet nog helpen schilderen bij 'n goeie vriend
Moet mien band plakken veur da'k ok mar war kan doen
En vanaovond wol ik weer 's aolderwets naor de kroeg met joe
Mar ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten
'k Heb 'n hiele liest met mensen die'k moet bellen
En a'k ze belle dan wol'k ze ok even die mop vertellen
Van die boer en die knechte en die neije fietse
't Is 'n goeie bak mar ja ik heb gien tied
'k Moet eigenlijk nog even naor de winkel toe
'n Verjaordagskadotie kopen veur mien moe
Nou moe'k snel wezen anders bennen de winkels dicht
Mar veur ik weg gao wol'k eerst nog even luusteren naor 't weersbericht
Mar ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten
Ze hebben mij zegd ontspanning is 't sleutelwoord
Probeer 't is met yoga of zulkswat
Of zo'n fijne harp plaat van dat jong van Vollenweider ach
Der bennen manieren zat, der bennen manieren zat
Mar 't help allemaol gen zak, a'j 't nie kunnen wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten
Mien tuune lek ja net 'n maonlandschap
En de regengeut zit vol met bruune drab
'K moet ok neudig weer 's naor de tandarts hen
Veurda'k de troste bezitter van 'n kunstgebit ben
Je hebben geliek, ja, nou moet 't mar 's wezen
Even rust inplaats van aal zo hard te pezen
Mar 'k heb 't leste plaatie van de Beatles nog nie heurd
En ik heb de kraante nog niet lezen dus ik weet nie wat der is gebeurd
Wat is ter toch gebeurd
Ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten, ik kan't nie wachten
Ik kan't nie wachten
Niks is zoas 't lek
Ik stao te graag met beide poten op de vaste grond
Die grond waor ze mij altied al van zeeden
Dat is nog 's vastigheid, daor ku'k zowat ja blind op gaon
Mar dat blek nie zo te wezen
Zo heb ik altied meent dat iederiene de zolde kansen hef
En dat meeste mensen goed bedoelen
Mar ik heur't mezolf aal vaker zeggen a'k weer ergens achter kom
O, zit dat zo, dat wee'k dan weer mooi
Zo zie'j mar weer, niks is zoas 't lek
Van die mensen waor ik eigenlijk altied van heb dacht
Dat bennen mensen met verstand van zaken
Kom ik der nou toch achter dat 't grootste gros van zulkse lui
Der eigenlijk ook mar wat van maken
Teleurgesteld is misschien ok weer niet 't goede woord
Want soms kan 't ok wel 's hiel lachwekkend wezen
A'j toch alle morgen over weer ik wat veur blunders in de kraante lezen
O, zit dat zo, dat wee'k dan weer mooi
Zo zie'j mar weer, niks is zoas 't lek
O, zit dat zo, dat wee'k dan weer mooi
Zo zie'j mar weer, niks is zoas 't lek
An leraars, ministers en oz Lieve Heer
An dokters, pastoors en an domeneers
An bedrieven en instellings en wetholders ok
En vanzolf an mezolf ok wul ik 't vraogen
Hoe zit dat, hoe zit dat, hoe
O, zit dat zo, dat wee'k dan weer mooi
Zo zie'j mar weer, niks is zoas 't lek
'K heb altied dacht dat waorheid in 't midden lag
En dat die waorheid soms hiel hard kan wezen
Mar nou blek soms die waorheid hielmaol nergens lag
En dan komp 't mij integen
If you want to read all of their lyrics:
http://www.skik.nl/sk/indexdiscografie.htm. There's also a vocabulary
listed on that page.
Ruud
----------
From: Gerald Tighe [gftighe2 at home.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonology" [E/LS] LOWLANDS-L, 12.SEP.1999 (05)
> Ron Wote
>
> I'd like to get some help with the issue of "sch" ~ "sk" in Low Saxon (Low
> German)? Is it correct to say that consistent _sch_ [S] in other dialects
> corresponds to _sch_ [S] at the beginning of a word and to _sk_ [sk] in other
> environments in the dialects of Eastern Friesland (and also some in the
> Oldenburg area?)? E.g.,
lot of snipping
Hi Ron:
There 3 pages of words "sk" beginning wirds in ma Scots dictionary. If this is
of
interest I can scan, and pass them on. e.g. skite, skelp, and skliff or scliff
Regards
Gerald http://artphotoprints.com
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Phonology
[The following is in Low Saxon (Low German) and English.]
Leve Leeglanners,
Mien Dank an all de leven Lüüd', de bitherto up mien Anfraag' antert hebbt.
Berend schreev:
> School = school, schoel of schoele
Berend, ward dat _sch_ as [S] (as in ingelsch _shoe_) or as [sX] (as in
hollandsch _school_) uutspraken?
Gertrud schreev:
> bi unds in Ostfreesland (in't Krummhörn) häjt dat
> Schkaul
> tüsken
> Minske
> düütsch
Dat's je man 'n Ding! Gifft dat bie Ju keen "-sk" an't Enn vun 'n Woord? Seggt
Jie ook "ingelsch", or is dat "ingelsk"? Seggt Jie ook "ingelsche Minsken" or
"ingelske Minsken"? In annere oostfreesche Mundaarden heff ick "düütsk" un
"ingelsk" höört un leest. Un wo is dat bie Ju mit dat wievliche "-sch(e)", t.B.
_de Doktersch(e)_?
Ruud schreev:
> I guess so. There's a popular Dutch rock band called Skik (=schik, "fun")
> from the province of Drenthe who sing in the local Low Saxon dialect.
>
> Here are a couple of their song lyrics:
Bedankt, Ruud. Den Tekst verstaa ick heel lichtfardig, man för de meersten
Sprekers in Düütschland is de "hollandsche" Schrievwies' 'n Probleem.
Leidergotts wardt us Spraak up düsse Wies' an de Grenz tweireten.
Gröten,
Reinhard/Ron
***
Dear Lowlanders,
Thanks to all of you who have responded to my inquiry so far.
Berend wrote:
> School = school, schoel of schoele
Berend, is _sch_ pronounced as [S] (as in English 'shoe') or as [sX] (as in
Dutch _school_)?
Gertrud wrote:
> bi unds in Ostfreesland (in't Krummhörn) häjt dat
> Schkaul
> tüsken
> Minske
> düütsch
That's amazing! Du you have no _-sk_ at the end of a word? Do you also say
_ingelsch_ 'English' or _ingelsk_? Do you also say _ingelsche Minsken_ or
_ingelske Minsken_ 'English people'? In other dialects of Eastern Friesland I
have heard and read _düütsk_ and _ingelsk_. And how do you handle feminine
_-sch(e)_, e.g., _de Doktersch(e)_ 'the (female) doctor'?
Ruud schreev:
> I guess so. There's a popular Dutch rock band called Skik (=schik, "fun")
> from the province of Drenthe who sing in the local Low Saxon dialect.
>
> Here are a couple of their song lyrics:
Thanks, Ruud. I easily understand the lyrics, but for most speakers of Germany
the "Dutch" orthography is a problem. Unfortunately, our language is being
separated at the border in this manner.
Gerald wrote:
> There 3 pages of words "sk" beginning wirds in ma Scots dictionary. If this
is of
> interest I can scan, and pass them on. e.g. skite, skelp, and skliff or scliff
That would be nice, though I suspect all or most of them to be of Scandinavian
origin.
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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