LL-L: "Double negative" [E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 20.SEP.1999 (01)

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Double Negative"

John wrate:

> Although Scottish Scots has a double negative (for emphasis, not
> regular as
> in Afrikaans) in some circumstances, the expression 'naebodie
> cudna' sounds
> very odd to me, and I would tend to interpret it as equivalent to
> 'everybody could'. Any other Scots speakers like to comment?

I think, in speech, this one's pretty much "on the fence" for me - it
depends on tone of voice and context. However, as usual, I don't think it's
suitable for use in writing except by a skilled writer who's sure of being
able to set up the context to make the meaning clear. I think, faced with it
in writing and with no particular context, I'd tend to interpret it as
"nobody could" if it was a direct statement. I think this is just idiom.

It's worth remembering that context can take right over from the actual
meaning of a thing and cause everybody to take the meaning intended in spite
of the meaning actually expressed. People can take your meaning as negative
or positive just because they know what you _wouldn't_ say, irrespective of
what you do say. If you say "My momma didn't raise no fools," people
interpret the double negative as a single negative because they just happen
to know you're not trying to insult your momma, self and siblings!

Another example is Burns's version of the Selkirk Grace [note that "want"
usually means "lack" in Scots]:

"Some have meat and cannot eat, some cannot eat that want it."

But my mother taught me this:

"Some hae meat an canna eat, an some can eat that want it."

In spite of being exact opposites logically, they're generally interpreted
to mean the same thing (and my mum's version makes more sense, I think!).

An example in English is Ben Jonson's "To Celia":

Drink to me only with thine eyes,
And I will pledge with mine;
Or leave a kiss but in the cup
And I'll not look for wine.
The thirst that from the soul doth rise
Doth ask a drink divine;
But might I of Jove's nectar sup
I would not change for thine.

By the time you get to the end of this you've already grasped the meaning -
nobody even notices that the last line actually says the opposite of what's
intended!

I'd suggest that double negatives in Scots, English and possibly Appalachian
are not so much irregular as irrelevant!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

----------

From: Gerald Tighe [gftighe2 at home.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Double negative" [Ap/E] LOWLANDS-L, 19.SEP.1999 (02)

Hi Folk:

> From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
> Subject: LL-L: "Double negative" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 14.SEP.1999 (05)
>
> Ian wrote:
>
> >From: Ian James Parsley [parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk]
> >Subject: LL-L: "Double negative" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 14.SEP.1999 (04)
> >
> >The "double negative" certainly exists in Ulster-Scots. It is generally used
> >to emphasize a negation, though it is occasionally almost obligatory (e.g.
> >"naeboadie cudna be obeyan", where the 'na' negative particle follows an
> >already negative subject).
>
> Although Scottish Scots has a double negative (for emphasis, not regular as
> in Afrikaans) in some circumstances, the expression 'naebodie cudna' sounds
> very odd to me, and I would tend to interpret it as equivalent to
> 'everybody could'. Any other Scots speakers like to comment?

The problems with "naebodie cudna" is the absence of context, and tone of voice,

and knowledge of the speaker.

-------------------
"naebodie cudna"
'[There is nobody who] could not [do that]'
'[Everybody] could not [do that]'
'[I ,and everyone else] could not [do that]'
'[Nobody] could [do that]'
----------------------------

1st speaker "A cudna pass thon exam.
2nd speaker "Nobody cudna" a sympathetic response that means "Nobody could have
passed that exam'

Expressions like "Naebodie cudna" an "Nobody knows nothing" while poor syntax,
they are also a kind of shorthand. They make sense when you know the code i.e.
which words are missing.
When I hear "I don't know nothing" I realize or interpret that the speaker is
not
saying "I know everything". It is an emphatic combination. The speaker  has
combined two statements/denials: " I know nothing [about that]" and "I don't
know
anything [about that]".

There is a third case where multiple negatives don't result in ither a positive
or a negative sentence. In a previous response I wrote "I can not disagree with
you"

"I can not disagree with you" does not mean "I can agree with you" nor is it
an incorrect "I can not agree with you". My meaning, intention lies in the
middle
of the syntactical number line, at zero. To expand my example:
"I can not disagree with you, [because I don't know enough about the subject].
Given that I am ignorant about the subject, to say either "I can agree with you"

or "I can not agree with you" as at best foolish.

Part of the confusion in this discussion is a misunderstanding  of the effect of

using ''dis'', it does not always negate a word
"I can not dismount" does not mean "I can mount"
------
"Ma heeds nae been sae sair
Sin A wasnae at the uni ony mair."
------
Regards

Gerald             http://artphotoprints.com

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