LL-L: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.AUG.2000 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
 =======================================================================

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L, 09.AUG.2000 (04)
[E/French]

At 15:35 9-8-2000 -0700, you wrote:
From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L, 09.AUG.2000 (01) [E]
 >>>>La consonne c#    C'est une sourde,
La consonne g#   C'est une sourde<<<<

Please correct: For g# please replace "sourde" with "sonore"
Sorry for the mistake,
Regards,
Roger
r.thijs at ieee.org

----------

From: Roger Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (02) [E]

At 07:51 10-8-2000 -0700, you wrote:
 >>>> From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Historical linguistics"<<<<<

I have been checking for words with dzj in the dictionary by Staelens of
Hasselt dialect. Unfortunately it is a Dutch-Limburgish one.

jaloers:        dzjalouë.s, dzjelouë.s;
        afl.    dzjalouë.zechèds (jaloersheid)
jazz            dzjas
Jezus           Dzjej.zes, Dzjej.zeke
Jozef           Dzjeu(e)s
juke-box        dzjoeboks
jullie          dzjië.lejs, dzjië.les
jumper  dzji.mper
gij             dzjië
stomp, stoot    dzjoe.mp

It difficult to find words that way, I guess it are all together not so
very many words,  just dzjië (gij) is occuring very frequently.

I got "Bilisium" (August 2000) from Bilzen today and I'm sure I found the
second most frequent occurence (p. 3628) in Limburgish:
"Lommich aof, dzju dedzju, lommich aof, miljaar, ich spiël nimmei!"
(Laat mij (van het toneel) af(komen), vloek vloek, laat mij af, miljard, ik
speel niet meer.)
dzju clearly corresponds to the French Dieu

I thought the tch was not occuring in Limburgish.
Joep Kruijsen, "Geografische patronen in taalcontact, Romaans leengoed in
de Limburgse dialecten van Haspengouw", 1995, Amsterdam, P.J. Meertens
instituut, unfortunately only focuses on vowels.
He gives however some isoglossen of walloon words, that penetrated into
Limburg:
p. 24: walloon vatchî, Limburgisch vatsji: literally cow-boy, boy who takes
care of the cows; in my dialect we used it for a boy who behaves a little
bit crazy.
comment: It's more negative as a  "halketeej" (eventually also from
walloon: cf. Haust: halcotî: chétif personnage, ... dér. de l'ancien
français haligote, ... picard: haricotier...)
p. 21: walloon clitchet, Limburgish klitsji ("kipkar, slagkar" in Dutch)
The latter is not a very good example for me, since I'm used to pronounce:
klit-sjeei in my dialect, while the first is clearly pronounced va-tsji.

I use the opportunity to correct my quotation of the definition of these
consonants by Warnant:
for  "tch/ Limburgish tsj": La consonne c#: c'est une sourde, mi-occlusive,
prédorsale prépalatale, différente de ce que serait une suite de deux cons.
t + s#.
for 'dj/ Limburgish dzj": La consonne g#: C'est une __sonore__,
mi-occlusive, prédorsale, prépalatale, correspondant à la sourde c#. ...le
g# n'est (pas) composé d'un d et d'un z#.

In Haust, Dictionnaire liégois, 1974 edition:
pages 223-232 list words starting with dj
pages 629-650 list words starting with tch
A few samples (randomly selected, but having the same morphological roots
in both languages) Walloon / French:

djalot          jaloux
djambe  jambe
djar            jars
(in my Limburgish we say "Hië ees en dzjarbos" for someone with a thick neck)
djargon jargon
djènèreûs       généreux
djèni           jaunir
djèter          jeter
djeû            jeu
djinne          gêne
djondant        joignant
djusse  juste
dj'vå           cheval

tchapite        chapitre
tchapon chapon
tchapuron       chaperon
tchår           char, also: chair
tchåsse chasse
tchèdje charge
tchèp'ter       charpenter
tchèrbon        charbon
tchèstê château
tchèt           chat
tchûse  choix

Regards,
Roger
r.thijs at ieee.org

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================