LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (09) [E]

Thu Aug 10 22:29:59 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.AUG.2000 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (06) [E]

john feather wrote
Subject: Standardization

>small observation about a difference between English/British and (at least
some) other monarchies. As far as I know, the first E/B monarch named "N"
> has always been known during his/her lifetime simply as "N". The next is
> called "N II". Leopold I of Belgium was (see Roger's recent posting)
always
> called that. Franz Josef I of Austro-Hungary was actually the first and
> last.

In GB they even manage a N II without having an N I.
Queen Elisabeth the II of GB? Britain Didn't exist when the supposed QE I
was on the throne.
The Indepedent Kingdoms of Scotland and England Existed.
Of course we all know that GB an England are synonyms;-)

Andy

----------

From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 10.AUG.2000 (06) [E]

Floor wrote (to explain to me about radii):
>
>As a geometry fanatic I immediatly knew that the radius is half the
>diamter of a circle ("straal"). The word radius is in the _Van Dale_
>dictionary, and the plurals given are _radiussen_ or _radii_ (but I
>don't have the latest Van Dale). The latter is the correct Latin plural
>of radius. Radia would suggest the singular to be radium, but radium
>doesn't have a plural.
>
Aha, didn't know that. I just know what a radius was and thought radii
could never be the plural, as the double i looks too weird to be Dutch.
Isn't it a very old word or something?

Ron hef schreven:

>Henry wrote:
>
>> But it does look to me, that when we have 5 different sounds, maybe we > need a
>> little more than just "a" and "aa" to represent those?
>> Does this all sound confusing? Yes it does... had to think about it a bit > myself...
>
>Only a little.  It's uncommon to have more than two kinds of /a/ phonemes, but
>I guess it isn't out of the question.  But five?!  I don't think so.  Three
>maybe.  Chances are that some of them are just different allophones of the
>same phoneme.
>
I don't know about phonemes and allphones that much, all I know is, that to me
my dialect has 5 distinct a-sounds. That's why I said we'd need audio samples,
then we won't have to explain how it sounds, one can just listen to it.

>> The 1st a-sound in _langwagen_ sounds like posh British "car",
>
>So it's a short back /a/, like in Dutch, here lengthened because of the
>following nasal.  (You do pronounce it shorter before other types of
>consonants, don't you?)
>
Yes I do, as in "man" (man), "kars" (cherry) (!), "dak" (roof)

 In most Low Saxon dialects it is a more frontal short
>[a], like in German _Mann_, and prededing nasals (/m/, /n/, /N/) and liquids
>(/l/, /r/) it is lengthened, usually more when preceding /r/, resulting in
>[a:] (as opposed to [Q:] or [o:] for the underlyingly long /a/), which sounds
>very much like the Dutch _aa_ in _baas_.  Note that this is the phonetic
>realization of /ar/, not of /a/.
>
>> And at last there is
>> _wark_ (work), with a sound somewhere in between a and o.
>
>That appears to be an allophone of the above.  Note the /r/ environment.
>
Could very well be. It's the same as in "kark" (church), "varken" (pig) and
"boren" (to
drill), "varen" (to sail (?)) and "stark" (strong). All with r's... So that's
an allophone.
But I wrote it as "a" already anyway, so I see no problem there.

>> Then you have the word _bak_ (container).
>> That a-sound would be /a/ (same as in _kars_ (cherry) in my dialect by the > way).
>
>I don't get this one.  Like the _a_ in _lang_ above, just shorter?
Yes, just a short a.

>> Then you have _schaap_ (sheep) and _maand_ (month), with a short /o/ that > gets
>> lengthened.
>
>I see.  So it looks as though you have ...
>
>/a/ (> [Q]) (which gets lengthened by rule in certain environments)
>
>/aa/ (> [a:])
>
>/åå/ (> [Q:] or [O:]).  (I just use these symbols for now.)
>
>In other words, something like two kinds of long /a/.
>
Yes. I also use the å symbol for explaining about _schaap_, but I'd rather not
really
use it in actual writing.

>As I said, we need a list of words in which all of these occur, and then we
>can also compare them with the respective cognates in other dialects.
>
>> Eeks... Did it seem like I was having Nordic thoughts?
>
>Nothing wrong with that, buddy.  We Saxons have been loving our Nordic
>neighbors ever since we stopped fearing them, i.e., since we civilized them.
>;)
>
I know, I still love 'em... Yet I wouldn't go as far as basing a writing
system on
Scandinavian...

>> What would we use, -a and -e? Where -a may be
>> ommitted and -e not?
>
>_-a_ seems a bit "drastic", because it doesn't sound like [a] in most
>dialects, and then there are Names like _Amerika_, _Clara_ or _Martha_.  It
>should be some sort of _-e_ letter.  Diacritics come to mind, such as a breve
>above an omittable _e_, but then you say you are too "lazy" for diacritics.
>And we have to bow to the likes and dislikes of the Spelling-Meister, don't
>we?  ;)
>
Would be nice *GRIN* No, you don't have to, but there are many people like me,
who just ommit diacritics, which doesn't present any real problems as far as I
know.
Yet if there really is no other (acceptable) way, I'd say use diacritics. And
I'm no Spelling-
Meister, that's for sure... I can't spell a single sentence right in Dutch! I
bet Low-Saxon
will be at least half as hard, that is, if the system is a little bit more
consistent.

grouten,
Henry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Standardization

All right, Henry.  Sound recordings are pie in the sky right now, and we have
to make do with what's obtainable.  Let's get to the bottom of this!  How
about helping me to group the following words according to the vowel?  And
perhaps some other Lowlanders begin to wake up and join anytime.

Please indicate the number after each:

01 [a] (e.g. German _Mann_)
02 [a.] (slightly longer than 1)
03 [a:] (e.g. Dutch _baas_ or Australian _part_)
04 [a:.] (extra-long version of 1)
06 [Q] (e.g. Dutch _kan_)
07 [Q.] (half-long version of 4)
08 [Q:] (or [O:], e.g. "posh" British/South African _part_)
09 [Q:.] (extra-long version of 4)
10 [o:] (e.g. German _Rose_)
11 [o:.] (extra-long version of 10)
12 [oU] (e.g. _go_ in most English and American varieties)
13 [o.U] (longer version of 12)

             Ron                 Henry
man:         man 01..............
day:         dag 01..............
that:        dat 01..............
roof:        dak 01..............
cat:         kat 01..............
to laugh:    lachen 01...........
might:       macht 01............
strength:    kraft/kracht 01.....
fast, tight: fast 01.............
damp:        damp 02.............
thank:       dank 02.............
dance:       danss 02............
tight:       drang 02............
all:         al 02...............
to fall:     fallen 02...........
comb:        kam 02..............
to catch:    fangen 02...........
edge:        kant 02.............
paddock:     kamp 02.............
sound:       klang 02............
land:        land 02.............
long:        lang 02.............
cherry:      kars 03.............
cart:        kar 03..............
work:        wark 03.............
wharf:       warf(t) 03..........
church:      kark 03.............
part:        part 03.............
market:      markt 03............
mountain:    barg 03.............
piglet:      farken 03...........
color/paint: farv(') 03..........
waggon:      wagen 08............
to come:     kamen 08............
open:        apen 08.............
to cook:     kaken 08............
drive,ride:  faart 08............
to complain: klagen 08...........
deed:        daad 08.............
ape,monkey:  aap 08..............
to bathe:    baden 08............
evening:     avend 08............
moon, month: maand 08............
sheep:       schaap 08...........
often:       faken 08............
pole, post:  paal 08.............
(pea) pod:   paal 08.............
down(ward):  daal 08.............
to stand:    staan 08............
train,track: baan 08.............
to dwell:    wanen 08............
done:        daan 08.............
state:       staat 08............
to let:      laten 08............
late:        laat 08.............
pair,couple: paar 08.............
beard:       baard 08............
fog:         daak 08.............
to make:     maken 08............
messengers:  baden 08............
steel:       staal 08............
boss:        baas 08.............
hare:        haas' 09............
days:        daag' 09............
lady:        daam' 09............
messenger:   baad' 09............
complaint:   klaag' 09...........
coal:        kaal(') 08/09.......
name:        naam(') 08/09.......
so:          soo 10/sou 12.......
dead:        dood 10/doud 12.....
red:         rood 10/roud 12.....
bean:        boon' 11/boun' 13...
merely:      bloots 11/blouts 13.
right away:  fourts 12...........
boat:        bout 12.............
book:        bouk 12.............
cake:        kouken 12...........
bread:       broud 12............
cabbage:     koul 12.............
plumb:       lout 12.............
dream:       droum 12............
tree:        boum 12.............
school:      schoul 12/13........
eye:         oog 11/oug 13/......
great:       groot 11/grout 13...
success:     spoud' 13...........
brine:       loug' 13............

This homework assignment will keep you out of mischief for a little while.

Anybody else, please feel free to jump in anytime!

> >And we have to bow to the likes and dislikes of the Spelling-Meister, > don't
> >we?  ;)
> >
> Would be nice *GRIN* No, you don't have to, but there are many people like > me,
> who just ommit diacritics, which doesn't present any real problems as far > as I know.
> Yet if there really is no other (acceptable) way, I'd say use diacritics. > And I'm no Spelling-
> Meister, that's for sure...

"Spell-Meister" sounds better, as in "Web-Meister".

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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