LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 24.FEB.2000 (02) [E]

Thu Feb 24 16:32:32 UTC 2000

 =======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.FEB.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
 =======================================================================

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language policies

Roger wrote:

> the French do not take them seriously (Picard and Zazi (du metro) are
similar language phenomena for them)<

There was a  film by Louis Malle called "Zazie dans le Métro" but that's as
close as I can get. May I ask for clarification?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

----------

From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2000 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2000 (03) [E]
> I suppose we are talking about a mindset and about premises that I simply
can
> not tune into.  Perhaps I should just stop hoping for some sort of logical
> sense to reveal itself in this matter.

1. I think things get confused because the political attitudes of people.

An example:

Afrikaans and Dutch are __different languages__. Though the morphology is
still similar enough for that people can read each other's written language
relatively easely, and after a few hours can tune their ears to the way the
other speaks.

Walloon (especially East-Walloon) and French are as different that it is
difficult to recognise morphological common roots, even in the written
language. Still most people consider Walloon dialects as a French __patois__
(as a kind of degeneration of French, rather than something on it's own).
Walloon has the disadventage of the lack of a koiné, and even their national
song, the "Tchant des Wallons" got (officially) only a French version.

2. Big countries, with a strong national language, do not care whether or
not the 'barbaric" regional languages are dialects or something on its own.

Do you really think Mr. Clinton knows if the Sioux, Navarro and Creek
languages are interrelated or not? Do you really think an US ambassador of
Navarro origin will speach in Navarro language when arriving in Brussels
rather than in English? When travelling in the States I see just the Spanish
community getting a few pages in some telephone directories, and that's all.
I would not wonder if mister Clinton would consider Appalachian and Navarro
as some kind of synonyms. We Europeans see a kind of hypocrisy in American
attitude, Americans are absolutely not aware of. For us the attitude of the
American government v/ Navarro and the attitude of the French government v/
Alsatian are very similar.

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Language policies" LOWLANDS-L, 23.FEB.2000 (04) [E]

Ron et al.,

I suspect what is required here is a knowledge of the way the French
view
themselves. They are very sure about what is regarded as "French" (in
marked
contrast, for example, to the English), something which can be quite
endearing but also unbelievably frustrating.

Recently when female members of parliament started referring to
themselves
or each other as "Madame *la* ministre" there was outcry at the use of
the
feminine article with "ministre". "Ministre", so the story went, was a
masculine noun even where referring to a woman. You'd have thought from
the
press coverage that this use of the wrong article was about the herald
the
end of French civilisation as we know it! The same applies to the
marked
fall in the use of the circumflex accent; there are people,
particularly
those in l'AF, who would seriously make you believe that the survival
of the
French State depended on the correct use of the circumflex!

The point is that the French language is an integral part of the French
State and of "Frenchness" itself. The use of the language is much more
widely discussed there than it is in the UK, and the state of the
French
language is cause of much greater concern there than, say, the German
language is to Germans. Many French people genuinely do not understand
how
one can possibly be French without speaking French as one's first
language.
The very notion that people within the French Republic could entertain
the
idea that their mother tongue is anything other than the language of
the
French Republic (i.e. French!) is simply alien to most French people.

I think that is probably the point Olivier was making. But yes Ron,
trying
to apply logic to it is probably a thankless task!

Best wishes,
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"

---------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language policies

Ian, you wrote:

> Many French people genuinely do not understand
> how
> one can possibly be French without speaking French as one's first
> language.

Oh, yes, Ian!  I was aware of this, was just not able to imagine that this
could be constitutionally and legislatively enshrined to that degree,
considering that policies usually do not only rely upon popular opinion and
wishful thinking but also on facts and feasibility.

Actually, what you described seems to be just a more extreme form of what is
traditional thinking in most of Europe, based on the wishful-thinking-based
"purity" motto "country = ethnicity = language" where diversity really has no
place, something we currently see in extreme action in the Balkans.  Some time
ago one Lowlands-L subscriber from Germany (sorry I forgot who it was) pointed
out that the average German has no time and interest in minority languages and
might even be surprised to hear about them.  The thought of someone being
German (not a "foreigner") and not having German as their first language is
still quite alien to many people there.  They can deal with awareness of those
small, tucked-away pockets of indigenous Danish, Frisian and Sorbian speakers,
who, after all, pose no threat at all (just like the relatively small number
of Gaelic speakers don't really pose a threat to the average person in
Scotland).  However, I think continued reluctance to embrace the thought that
Low Saxon (Low German) is a separate language (and that the same language
straddles the German-Netherlands border) may be at least in part due to people
not being able to cope with the ideas that a minority language (1) can be
relatively large, (2) can be closely related but still separate, and (3) can
be independent of ethnicity.  (I keep wondering if something similar can be
said about Scots vis-à-vis English in Scotland.)

Roger, yes, your basic point is well taken.  Majority thinking in the United
States, Canada and Australia are still pretty much based on European
traditional thinking.  The resurgence and re-empowering of Maori in New
Zealand is remarkable in that sense, perhaps possible because there is only
one indigenous minority language to deal with in that relatively small
country.

You wrote:

> Do you really think Mr. Clinton knows if the Sioux, Navarro and Creek
> languages are interrelated or not?
<...>
> I would not wonder if mister Clinton would consider Appalachian and > Navarro
> as some kind of synonyms.

I, on the other hand, would not be one bit surprised to find out that he is
quite aware of the relationship between Lakota/Dakota, Navajo/Navaho and Cree
(which I think you meant by "Sioux, Navarro and Creek").  I don't want to come
across as Bill Clinton's defender, but I would like to give him a lot more
credit than you do, being aware that he is extremely well educated.  I can
pretty much guarantee that he is fully aware of the difference between
Appalachian and Navaho, as is the vast majority of Americans, certainly
Americans that grew up in America.

> When travelling in the States I see just the Spanish
> community getting a few pages in some telephone directories, and that's
> all.

It is true that a lot more needs to be done regarding linguistic diversity in
this country.  However, I think your experiences here are fairly limited.
Certainly the "larger" indigenous languages (e.g., Navaho) are considered or
publicly featured in the areas in which they are used.  Most, if not all,
administrative services dispense information not only in Spanish but also in
the currently predominant community languages, currently mostly Russian,
Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, Khmer, Lao and Tagalog, and public interpreter
services for many other languages are available over the phone or by
appointment.  I dare say that the situation is fairly similar in Canada.  Much
of this depends upon state or provincial policy rather than on the respective
central governments, which is another reason why it is unwise to generalize.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================