LL-L: "Language conflicts" LOWLANDS-L, 25.JUL.2000 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUL.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Lieko Helmus" <lhelmus at chello.nl>
Subject: LL-L: "Language conflicts" (was "Loanguage politics",  Frisian on
Radio!!!

L.S.,
In this discussion there was the wondering why Frisian is only
on cable television (CTV) and "forbidden" to be relayed outside
Fryslan. But recently Omrop Fryslan proundly announced it
had started its own website: www.omropfryslan.nl giving the
impression it was from then on possible to really hear (via
RealPlayer or so) over the Internet live all its Radio programs.
But what a disappointment! They only have the details of programs
I in Hilversum cannot even listen to. But when I complained to them
there was not even a polite reply.
Omrop Fryslan really live
on the Internet will be a tremendous boost to the Frisian culture
and language. But many see even this as a dangerous process
of Nationalism. And if there is one thing certain people in "Holland"
are afraid of its this thing called nationalism. It will bring another
Hitler or so.
With a Frisian generation now all over this planet still willing and able to
pass on their language  to the next one, Omrop Fryslan to me is key.
Liekele Lieuwes Helmus, Hilversum
________________________________________________

Liekele (Lieko) Helmus & Rinske Helmus-Deutekom
Siriusstraat 52, NL-1223 AP Hilversum, the Netherlands
31(0)35 6858 675 (+voicemail)   Fax 31(0)20 8848 931(fax2pc)
gsm 06 28184122 (+SMS)          NetMeeting (+Webcam)
lhelmus at chello.nl

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From: HS Brandsma [hsbrand at jol04.cs.vu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language conflicts" (was "Loanguage politics",

koartby waard skreaun troch Criostoir:

> I'm very surprised that Frisian language television is
> only available on cable. I assumed - naively,
> evidently - that the Netherlands were fairly
> enlightened when it came to minority issues, but if a
> language that is spoken by the majority of Fryslan
> (55%) is not broadcast so that majority can enjoy
> television in its own language, that comes very close
> to linguistic hegemony and intolerance. Very
> disappointing.

Well, to be fair, most Dutch households have cable, so only very
remote places will not be able to get Frisian television. So certainly
a majority of the Frisians (say 90 %, maybe more) are able to receive
it. But those outside the province cannot (though there are quite a
few emigrants, even in the Netherlands). BTW, only the news, some
documentaries and a little bit of entertainment is broadcast dayly,
maybe two hours worth (which is then repeated). But it is a start. On
national television (both cable and broadcast) there is a half hour of
Frisian tv (by the same Omrop Frysla^n). This has already been so
since I was young (I remember watching it as a little kid).

Henno Brandsma

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language conflicts" LOWLANDS-L, 24.JUL.2000 (05) [E/S]

> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
>
> I'd suggest that this is a lot to do with perception and expectations, and
> probably also, as I've sometimes observed when on holiday with friends,
> that many people have no idea what's really going on in a linguistic
> situation.  Most English people I know speak of the French as unfriendly,
> whereas I always find them very friendly.  The reason for this is obvious
> to me - it's that I speak French - but the non-French speakers in the group
> never accept this argument and instead bring up examples of French
> unfriendliness that they imagine to be independent of language.  I've
> noticed something similar in Belgium where the Walloons never tire of
> explaining how unfriendly the Flemings are - and vice versa.  This doesn't
> seem to be merely political: they support their assertions with many
> personal experiences of their dealings with the "others".  As you say,
> Inverness seems unfriendly to Aberdonians, Aberdeen to Glaswegians and so
> on - in other words, it may be an almost universal phenomenon.
>
This is something I have exprerienced lots of times when going to the the west
of the Netherlands (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, that area). If I just
speak Dutch as I do as I would where I live (the east, Low-Saxon area),
with rather a large accent I guess, the people aren't too friendly. If I ask
for
directions that way, I never get a good answer. Last time I was in Amsterdam,
I eventually asked 2 construction workers and they answered me in my own
language and gave me perfect directions! If, on the other hand, I do my very
best
and speak "clear" Dutch (is there really any?), then I don't have much
problems,
other than people really unable to give me directions.

> The idea that the Welsh only speak Welsh when the English are present is a
> stock-in-trade of the sort of club comedians that can only be funny by
> disparaging someone who's different from themselves, which may help to add
> to the myth.  The situation in Wales can be a bit odd because Welsh and
> English exist in a balance but they're not at all miscible the way Scots
> and English, or even Shetlandic and English, can be.  When I lived in
> Wales, it was accepted practice to use Welsh if it didn't exclude anyone
> from the conversation, but if English monolinguals sauntered up, it wasn't
> considered either practical or necessary to turn the whole conversation to
> English.  Usually the English speaker can either walk away or attempt to
> make conversation in English with someone who doesn't seem too interested
> in the Welsh conversation.  After that, the new conversation might swing
> round to English.
>
That's exactly the way is was when I was in primary school. We all spoke
Saxon,
even with Dutch-only speakers around. If they showed to make an effort an try
to
understand us, we were willing to switch to Dutch, if they didn't succeed in
their
effort. It looks like children are much better at making that effort, because
20 years
later, people just demand that we speak Dutch, while the language composition
of the group might still be the same...

grootten,
Henry

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Language conflicts" LOWLANDS-L, 24.JUL.2000 (07) [E/S]

Ron hef schreven:
> > Another thing: I just lost 2 friends the other day, in a very sad way.
>
> I'm very sorry to hear that you were disappointed in that way and have been
> made to feel disrespected, to the degree where you feel that it destroyed
> your friendship.
>
> Of course, your feelings cannot be argued with, and I certainly understand
> your sense of loss and frustration.  Even though this may be no consolation
> to you, I ask you to try and think of the incident as part and parcel of a
> long history of denigration of our common ancestral language, as something
> that probably has been happening somewhere everyday for a long, long time.
>
I do think of it that way. And even with that taken into consideration, they
could
have just argued with me in an adult discussion, without making any
denigrating
remarks, like they did. If anyone discusses with me about anything and they do
not agree with me, that's fine, as long as they use sound arguments. Just
don't
insult me that bad...

> Yes, it keeps on happening even now, after the signing of the European
> Language Charter and consequent official recognition of Low Saxon (Low
> German) as a regional language in the Eastern Netherlands and Northern
> Germany (as *two* languages if some people have their way).  I see your
> "friends'" arguments as the usual product of this history of denigration
> and alienation, a longstanding tradition of wishing or pronouncing the
> original language of the region dead, a tradition that began centuries ago,
> a tradition that sadly has spread to those who ought to cherish the
> language as a part of their own heritage.  Perhaps, if you look at it that
> way, you will have more of a sense of compassion regarding those people.
> It is they and their children who are the actual victims.  It is they who
> are missing out on something that could have made their lives richer.
>
Much richer I might add. By learning 2 languages at the same time, I
developed such a good feeling for languages in general, that I don't have to
go
to much trouble to learn any language at all. And I have much more ways to
express myself more clearly than I could in only 1 language. But I've said
this
before.

> That's what our parents' or grandparents' generation had been made to think
> of Low Saxon (Low German) vis-à-vis German and Dutch.  Even as speakers
> themselves, they bought the line that "Plat(t)" is the sign of "ignorance"
> and/or "backwardness," and that's why so many of us missed out unless we
> took some initiative ourselves or were lucky enough to live in a Low Saxon
> stronghold like you do, Henry.  Once settled, views are slow to change, and
> you got a dose of this.  I just hope you will not take these things too
> personal but will keep on using the language with your head held high, or
> even in the fashion of "in your face!"
>
Actually my parents have been made to think like that too. At first, they
didn't
want me to learn Low-Saxon. But luckily enough I lived nextdoor to my grand
parents and 2 uncles, who thought that was crazy and they spoke Low-Saxon
to me anyway, so my parents wisely gave up and these days they think very
different about that. They'd never do that again.

If my dream comes true, and I will do everything I can to make it, then they
(the
"friends") will have to undergo a very big "in your face" from my side :)
Whether
they like it or not.

grootten,
Henry

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: Language conflicts

Dear all,

I do agree with you on the 'national identity' issue
on reflection. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that the
practice persisted openly - as it very much did during
the last Conservative government - but nonetheless the
observation is valid as a description to the
centralising background of the United Kingdom.
Further, I would qualify myself by adding that the
practice does still persist occasionally, even if it
has been amended within the last three years or so.

I would add that the development of references to
'Scots' 'Welsh' etc. rather than 'British' has come
about because commentators have had no other choice,
not because they were suddenly enlightened as to
proper national sentiments. I seem to recall a bizarre
incident from a few years back concerning the Welsh
athlete Colin Jackson: he had been competing
ostensibly for 'Great Britain', and the commentator
referred to him as 'British'and his performance as a
"Great day for Britain". However, when he proceeded to
begin his victory lap of the track he shunned a Union
flag in favour of the Red Dragon flag of Wales - the
commentator seemed to be quite confused by this breach
of protocol and began switching between referring to
Jackson as 'British' and 'Welsh' whilst clearly
Jackson wished to be talked of as unequivocally
'Welsh'. In the end, the commentator snorted "And
Wales will no doubt be proud of its favourite son
too."

I think you go too far in asserting that there is some
justification to English feelings of
under-representation today. The experience of media
coverage of Euro 2000 was that us non-English within
the United Kingdom were somehow expected to back
England even though we were Cornish, Scottish, Welsh
or Irish - that it was some kind of 'holy duty'. I
lost count of the number of times commentators,
correspondents, newscasters and journalists used the
pronoun "we" to describe an entirely English
sentiment, and the obsessive coverage given to the
preparation of the English football team in supposedly
pan-British programmes such as the Nine O'Clock News,
ITV Early Evening News or Channel Four News was
particularly evident and galling. The implication was
clear: "English" equals "British" and that it was the
moral duty of everyone who was "British" to wet their
pants gushing with emotion for some third rate
over-hyped incompetents like England.

In addition, there was never any air time given to
Scottish or Welsh views on the irresponsible - and at
times racist - 'support' given to the English team by
the tabloids, which time and again spewed out the
usual "Achtung! We will fight them on the beaches"
jingoism and passed it off as 'English patriotism'.
Similarly, I found it peculiar that no-one replied to
my insistence of the undiplomatic nature of Tony
Blair's blatant - indeed recorded - support for
England when they played Scotland recently.

If you recall the Scotland v England match in Euro 96,
John, you may remember the shockingly partisan nature
of the pan-British news media in favour of England,
and the absolute delight in which England's victory
was relayed throughout the whole of the island, as
though Scotland were some foreign team from the near
east, such as Norway, Sweden or the Netherlands (which
to most English people Scotland might well as be).
Once again, it seems that "British" really means
"English", and when we Cornish, Welsh, Scots or Irish
protest about this, it is blandly accepted that it is
us who are being nationalist!

You are entirely correct in your counter of English
football hooligans being referred to as precisely
that. However, I well remember a parliamentary debate
in the House of Commons in 1996 where the Conservative
government - and the Labour opposition - utterly
refused to move beyond describing English hooligans as
"British soccer hooligans" and one even went so far as
to refer to them as "United Kingdom football
hooligans"! And the contrast between English
hooliganism and Scottish good behaviour is rarely
mentioned: indeed, if English supporters have been
particularly violent in contrast to Scots supporters
who have been well-behaved, the fact of the Scottish
supporters' excellent conduct will usually be actively
ignored so as not to exaggerate the foul behaviour of
the English.

One of the most pleasant football matches I ever saw
was the Euro 2000 qualifier between Scotland and the
Faroe Islands in Torshavn. I've never seen such
camaraderie between to peoples in such a cold place!

I find your statement that "if Scots is the language
of working class football hooligans I don't want my
children to learn Scots" quite curious. A language can
hardly be equated with the actions of a small minority
of its speakers, particularly not a minority language.
It's equivalent to electing not to propogate Faroese
because it's the language of whalers or Irish Gaelic
because it's associated with the activities of the
IRA. In the latter case I find this a particularly
tiresome refrain to my knowledge of Irish, and one I
have encountered many, many times in my life. In fact,
whenever I mention to people that I can speak Irish,
invariably one of the following responses is either a)
"Oh, do you support the IRA then?" b) "Oh, well, I
hope you're not planning to shoot/bomb me!" (generally
accompanied by hollow laughter) or c) "I'll stay out
of your way in arguments then!" All of these are
usually accompanied by an attempt to speak in a
faux-Irish accent, and often I'm asked: "Go on, Chris
- speak a wee bit of Paddy for us."

As for working-class fuck-youism and education, I
would counter that most of my experiences have
apparently not been shared by most of the people I've
met throughout my life. However, if we're going to get
into the refrain of "I resent this and that" I would
say I very much resent having my own experiences of
education sidelined as "fuck-youism", as though it was
worthless petty protest: as I have articulated, I had
a very conflictual time throughout school, and this
has coloured my whole view to education. If you don't
agree with those views, fine - but please don't deny
that such events occurred to me or attempt to
denigrate my own highly personal conduct as doubtful
or invalid. My experiences is different to that of
everyone else, and when I point to "90% of cases being
down to anatagonism" that is what I truly believe.
It's entirely subjective, entirely opinionated - but
that doesn't mean it's wrong.

The issue of who votes for collaborators is a
politically-charged one, and I would be moving into
sociology and politics by attempting to deal with it
in any great length. What I will proffer is that
elections are the domain or partisan alignment, and,
as has been mentioned concerning the Welsh valleys,
"You could put a jam sandwich up as a Labour candidate
there and it would get elected without a second
thought." At election time the public is genuinely
hopeful, and this hope manifests itself as a vote for
who they hope will change things rather than who
really will. Hence themass of collaborators generally
get re-elected out of habit, hope and partisan
affirmation. They then proceed to continue precisely
where they left off: doing nothing and getting paid
muchas moneda for it.

Until next time,

Criostoir.

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