LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 09.MAR.2000 (04) [D/E/LS]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.MAR.2000 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefaan Vermeire [stefaan.vermeire at advalvas.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 08.MAR.2000 (05) [D]

Beste Roger,

Dank voor de verheldering i.v.m. de gebruikte spelling in Frans-Vlaanderen.

Rekening houdend met de West-Vlaamse uitspraak van heel veel woorden, denk
ik niet dat de nasaal-klanken in de huidige Zuid-Vlaamse streektaal een
gevolg zouden zijn van een welbepaalde taalsituatie, meer bepaald de grote
Franse invloed in de Franse Westhoek. In "Bachten de Kuppe" vinden we
dezelfde klanken aan ("menschen" - "goan"). [We moeten daarenboven altijd
opletten met vergelijkingen te trekken tussen twee talen. In leerboekjes
staan er vaak "geluidluidende woorden", maar wanneer men eens goed en wel
ondergedompeld is in de taal zelf, merkt men vaak dat die gelijkenissen
slechts een benadering vormen.]

Een interessante vraag is evenwel of die klanken niet onder Franse invloed
zijn gevormd, en dat in vroegere tijden. Heeft het Frans op een of andere
wijze zijn stempel gedrukt op de Vlaamse streektaal, niet alleen in wat nu
Frans-Vlaanderen is maar ook in andere grensstreken (streek rond Rijsel,
taalgrens in België). Men spreekt veel over de invloed van het Vlaams op de
Rijselse Franse streektaal (en inderdaad: een groot aantal Vlaamse
uitdrukkingen, spraakkundige eigenheden en zelfs woorden zijn in het Rijsels
bewaard gebleven), maar wat in verband met de omgekeerde richting?

De schrijfwijze "ae" is weldegelijk afkomstig uit de oude Nederlandse
spelling, waar de lange a-klank bijna steeds "ae" werd geschreven (in
overeenstemming met een aantal etymologische wetmatigheden). Waarom hij niet
gekozen heeft voor "oa" is mij een raadsel. Het grootste probleem met de
"nieuw" ontworpen spelling is dat het de gebruikers niet alleen afschermt
van het A.N., maar ook van de oudere Vlaamse teksten die nog in
Frans-Vlaanderen gevonden kunnen worden. Persoonlijk denk ik dat er maar
weinig toekomstperspectieven zijn voor het Vlaamse dialect in die streek. De
leegloop van de regio, de veroudering van de bevolking, het toenemend
gebruik van het Frans, en het gemis aan een bijzonder "Vlaamse besef" (er
zijn uitzonderingen, natuurlijk - in meerdere opzichten zijn die zelfs heel
wat nationalistischer dan in Belgisch-Vlaanderen) zijn allemaal elementen
die niet bijdragen tot het behoud van de streektaal. Maar mijn hart wil
graag in het tegendeel geloven...

> Dezelfde sterke nazalisatie valt mij op bij Marieke (Maryse
Collache-Rouzet
> uit Dunkerque), wanneer ze in het Vlaams zingt. Ik veronderstel dat ze
> hoofdzakelijk franstalig is.

Is dit nog te verkrijgen?

Groeten,
Stefaan.

----------

From: Stefaan Vermeire [stefaan.vermeire at advalvas.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 08.MAR.2000 (03) [D/LS]

Lieber Reinhard,

Yes, there are indeed several "coincidences" between the Flemish dialects
and the Low German ones. More than once I have observed that I was able to
understand written and spoken dialects from the East of the Netherlands and
in the North of Germany, simply by the fact that my Flemish dialect had the
same words as in Low German, although these words were not found in Standard
Dutch nor in the middle Dutch dialects ("Brabants").

For example, in my dialect (which I use daily at home, with friends and even
at work during the informal moments) we use following words which are almost
the same in Low German:

Dutch: zon
Flemish: zunne
Low German: Sünne

D: sneeuw
F: snee
LG: Snee

D: zwijn
F: zwien
LG: Swien

D: vrouw
F: wuf
LG: Wief

D: boterham
F: stuute
LG: Stuute

D: kijken
F: kieken
LG: kieken

Of course, these are only a few examples which came in my mind. A more
detailed research can bring also other similarities on the surface. The
question is if these similarities are rooted in the influence of the
Anglo-Saxon communities which were located at the beginning of the early
middle ages around contemporary Boulogne or can we state that we have common
elements which were shared? We must not forget that West-Vlaams (Flemish of
the West) is a dialect group, contrary to other Dutch dialects, in which no
profound changes have occured. It is true that several grammatical
properties, which are found the medieval texts, can still be hourd in the
daily spoken dialect (double negation; declination of the personal pronouns;
etc). Some people are even convinced that the pronunciation of West-Vlaams
is almost the same as during the middle ages

I take the opportunity also to ask a general question: do some list members
have any information on the "Aldietsche Beweging"? This was a linguistic and
literary mouvement during the 19th century, which's most important goal was
the creation of a common orthography for Dutch and Low German and to
exchange literary works, folk songs, etc between the two communities. If I
am correct important men as Gröt [I think this is not correct... feel free
to correct] and Willems participated in this cultural mouvement.
Greetings,
Stefaan R.W. VERMEIRE.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Leve Steffen (Stefaan),

Düt hest schreven:

> Yes, there are indeed several "coincidences" between the Flemish dialects
> and the Low German ones. More than once I have observed that I was able to
> understand written and spoken dialects from the East of the Netherlands > and
> in the North of Germany, simply by the fact that my Flemish dialect had > the
> same words as in Low German, although these words were not found in > Standard
> Dutch nor in the middle Dutch dialects ("Brabants").

This is predominantly due to the fact that Flemish and Low Saxon varieties are
phonologically very conservative, for instance by not having participated in
the diphthongization that you find in other Dutch dialects (/ii/ > /@i/ 'ij')
and in German (/ii/ > /ai/ 'ei'), and they have also preserved the old _-en_,
mostly as syllabic [n].  However, yes, there are are other similarities, as
you noted.  Many of these may be coincidental cases of preservation of lexical
items.

However, rumor has it that there *is* a Saxon connection, which we have
briefly discussed on LL-L before.  Apparently, this is due to fairly
large-scale immigration of Saxons to parts of the Belgian coastal areas at
some point in time (apparently also to the coast just north of today's
Belgian-Netherlands border).  I am not sure if anyone has ever seriously
researched Saxon influences on the dialects of the area.

I have listened to some songs in "brought" dialects from that area.  I was
surprised how easily I understood them and how similar to Low Saxon they
sounded.

Because the German-based orthography is inadequate, please allow me to add the
phonemically written Low Saxon (Low German) equivalents to your list, followed
by phonetics in brackets (according to the SAMPA rules:
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm).

Dutch: zon
Flemish: zunne
Low German: Sünne = sünne ~ sün [zYne] ~ [zYn]

D: sneeuw
F: snee
LG: Snee = snei [snEI]
'snow'

D: zwijn
F: zwien
LG: Swien = swiin [svi:n]
'swine', 'pig'

D: vrouw
F: wuf
LG: Wief = wiiv [vi:f] (pl. wiver ['vi:vV])*
(also _Fru_ = _fruu_ and _Fro_ = _frou_)
'woman', 'wife'
(* considered rude or derogatory nowadays)

D: boterham
F: stuute
LG: Stuute = stute ~ stuten [stu:te] ~ [stu:t=n] 'fine/sweet/raisin bread'
'bread and butter', 'sandwich'

D: kijken
F: kieken
LG: kieken = kiken ['ki:k=N]
'to look'

> I take the opportunity also to ask a general question: do some list > members
> have any information on the "Aldietsche Beweging"? This was a linguistic > and
> literary mouvement during the 19th century, which's most important goal > was
> the creation of a common orthography for Dutch and Low German and to
> exchange literary works, folk songs, etc between the two communities. If I
> am correct important men as Gröt [I think this is not correct... feel free
> to correct] and Willems participated in this cultural mouvement.

(= Groth)

I have only very sketchy knowledge of it, sometimes find references to North
German Low Saxon literary works having been featured in collections published
in the Netherlands or Belgium in the 19th century.  It is my impression that
at the time there was fairly keen awareness of what to all intents and
purposes is a type of dialect continuum across national boundaries, with a
definite typology (e.g., Low Franconian vs Low Saxon) but still close
relationships with a high degree of mutual intelligibility (of the type found
for instance among the Scandinavian varieties).

I am not sure what put an end to that movement, but I assume it was a variety
of things.  I wonder if anyone has seriously studied it.  Perhaps, most
importantly, there was a sudden increase in national
monopolization/centralization irrespective of old cultural and linguistic ties
(e.g., more rapid Germanization of Northern Germany following German
"unification" in the mid-19th century, resulting in further psychological
alienation from the Lowlandic relatives in the west).  Also, I would not be
surprised to hear that more recently, with the end of World War II, any
thought of this kind of movement would have left many Netherlanders and
Belgians with a bitter taste in their mouths, partly because of anti-German
sentiments and partly because some Nazi propagandists had used the cultural
and linguistic connections to psychologically prepare the way for German
occupation of those two countries.

In my opinion, such a movement would find popular support nowadays only if
everyone were fully aware that "Low German" is not "German" and does not
represent Germany, just as "Low Saxon" is not "Dutch" and does not represent
the Netherlands.  Certainly, the weakening of the national boundaries in a
gradually uniting Europe would be beneficial to increasing awareness and
hopefully celebration of old relationships and common heritage.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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