LL-L: "Loanwords" LOWLANDS-L, 11.MAY.2000 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Carl Johan Petersson [Carl_Johan.Petersson at Nordiska.uu.se]
Subject: LL-L: "Loanwords" LOWLANDS-L, 11.MAY.2000 (01) [E]

Barry Watson wrote:
>"bastu" is a shorterned form of badstuga. http://g3.spraakdata.gu.se
>says that "Formen bastu har sannol. uppkommit ur badstuwu i ssgr" which
>I translate to "The form bastu has more than likely come from badstuwu
>in ssgr". Now what is ssgr???

ssgr. = sammansättningar ('compounds' in English). I guess what this
article, taken from the Swedish Academy Dictionary, is really trying to
say, is that _bastu_ is a reduced form of _badstuwu-_ (the genitive
singular of Old Swedish _badstuwa_ > modern Swedish _badstuga_)and that
this reduction originally took place when _badstuwu-_ was the first part of
a compound noun.

The standard etymological handbooks do not seem to support the idea that
_badstuga_ should be a loan in Swedish, though in my opinion it can't just
be a coincidence that similar words occur in German and Low Saxon. Bearing
in mind that bathing is an activity known even to very "primitive" peoples,
might we not assume that this word is something we all inherited from our
proto-Germanic ancestors?

What does _Badestube_ (and its Lowlands equivalents) signify - a building
used for hot steam baths (like a sauna) or just any type of baths? It
strikes me that 'sauna' is probably not the original meaning of this word.

Regards,

Carl Johan

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Loanwords

Carl Johan wrote:

> What does _Badestube_ (and its Lowlands equivalents) signify - a building
> used for hot steam baths (like a sauna) or just any type of baths? It
> strikes me that 'sauna' is probably not the original meaning of this > word.

You won't find _Badestube_ used much these days, at least not in Standard
German where the usual word is _Badezimmer_.  You will find _Baa(d)stuuv'_ or
_Baa(d)kamer_ in Low Saxon (Low German), _badkamer_ in Dutch and Afrikaans,
etc.  But, certainly these days, these refer to bathrooms in houses or
apartments (with or without toilets, must be added for the information of our
American subscribers).  Thus they are the equivalents of Swedish _badrum_
rather than of the "old-fashioned" _bastu_ (if there is such a difference), or
of the Russian _vannaja_ rather than of the elaborate public _banja_.

I am certainly no expert in the European history of bathing, but it has been
my impression that Northern Europe did not originally have a bathing culture
in which you would find specific private or public buildings or rooms
dedicated to bathing along the lines of Mediterranean cultures (e.g., the
Roman _bal(i)neum_ or the larger _therma_) or the Siberian-derived sweatlodge
cultures (e.g., the Finnish _sauna_, the Hungarian public bath halls, and the
Russian _banja_ that seem to be Siberian- or specifically Uralic-derived).  I
understand that the original purpose of these Uralic baths may well have been
not only sanitary but also spiritual, much like they still are in some
Siberian and Native American cultures (probably in a cultural continuum) --
and I know that even among today's people of Finland and Karelia a good,
old-fashioned sauna bath is almost or actually a type of spiritual
experience.  If the Swedish-type _bastu_ is indeed in a separate hut, hall or
room, I strongly suspect it of being Finno-Lappic-derived.

Original North European cultures certainly were not known for their obsession
with bathing.  Most houses consisted of one all-purpose room.  If you could
not bathe outside, you would put a tub into the house on bath day (however
frequently that would come around).  In many cases this continued when houses
and apartments had more than one room, until well into the 20th century.  Real
bathrooms probably started in the houses of wealthy people fairly recently.
(I know that few 18th century mansions and castles had actual bathrooms.)  I
am not aware of any separate huts for steam baths other than those that seem
to be Siberian-derived.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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