LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.2000 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.NOV.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Language varieties"

Ethan Barrett asked:
Language vs dialect

> how do we
> distinguish seperate languages from seperate dialects of the
> same language?

ouch- that's a question that's bedeviled this list repeatedly,
and as a trained linguist, I can tell you-  there is no reliable
criterion to determine whether related varietes should be
considered dialects or languages.  It's not like boiling water,
that has a clear and abrupt transition at 100 degrees C;
language varities won't have an abrupt transition (unless
something breaks off their contact, e.g. emigration).  The
dialects of German-Dutch (I wish we had a neutral word for that)
blend one into the other without break from Amsterdam to
Austria.

Mutual comprehension is a popular approach, but unreliable: all
the Germanic languages can be mutually intelligble at some level
with enough good will, but not all Americans understand each
other, despite relatively superficial (but obvious) dialect
differences.

Official recognition plays a major role- Alsatian is largely
seen as a dialect of German, but the Luxemburgers have
established their Letzeburgesch as a formal language.  Attitude
and perception affect the debate, especially since there is no
clear-cut dividing line.

>>From a purely linguistic point of view, you can look for degrees
of divergence: variant pronunciation of the same basic phonemes
is superficial; having different phonemes is more substantial
(e.g. Scots has gh [x], which English doesn't.  Major
differences in morphology and syntax points to even more
divergence, e.g. Platt vs. High German: 2 vs. 4 cases.
The problem is, you're always comparing apples and oranges when
you compare divergence in verb endings etc. here and in sentence
structure and so on there.
With closely related varieties, it always comes down to a
judgement call

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

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From: Bart Hollebrandse [zeeuws2000 at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 20.NOV.2000 (03) [E]

Simon Reker once said:
"Een dialect is een taal zonder geluk"
(a dialect is a language without luck"

Bart

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