LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 24.NOV.2000 (01) [E]

Sat Nov 25 01:31:17 UTC 2000

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 24.NOV.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language varieties

It seems to me that Sandy's first criterion of "language" status - whether
it is taught in schools - needs to be interpreted with care.

1. What is meant by "teaching a language at school"? Scots can be taught to

Scottish children either as their own language (like English in English
schools) or as a foreign language (like English in French schools).

2. I assume that in most schools in countries like Belgium and Canada one
of
the two official languages is used as the medium of instruction and
"taught"
accordingly and the other is essentially taught as a "foreign" language.
Does the fact that "Vlaams" is taught in both senses in Belgian schools
tell
us anything about whether it is a language or a dialect of Nederlands?

3. From the point of view of the question as to how a language is
distinguished from a dialect it is irrelevant to consider Welsh or
Afrikaans
vs. English.

4. We can deal with the case of an external power banning a language
(variety) under the heading "force majeure" and on those grounds omit the
criteria affected.

5. I interpret Sandy's list as suggesting that if a criterion is met that
tends to lead to the conclusion that a language is involved, but the
reverse
argument has less power.

Some unrelated questions about language in schools: Many (English-speaking)

teachers of young children speak to them using very marked changes of
pitch.
Is this the practice of speakers of other languages? Are teachers taught to

do this? Is there any evidence that this is a more effective way of
addressing young children than using more level tones?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language varieties

I missed the BBC's "Routes of English" this morning but there is a website
www.bbc.co.uk/routesofenglish

The Last Word in this week's New Scientist deals with the question "How do
accents develop and change? More specifically, how do new accents form,
such
as those that arose in Australia and New Zealand?" The answers are
available
for the next week at www.newscientist.com under "Last Word".

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Language varieties

My copy of Outlook Express has apparently been corrupted and I have lost
two
weeks' messages, so I  can't recall exactly what Roger said about "parish",

but an alternative and (I hope) neutral word for the concept could be
"deme". Chambers dictionary defines this as "A subdivision of ancient
Attica
and modern Greece, a township; a group of plants or animals that are
closely
related and live in a single distinct locality". I think a "deme" was, more

specifically, a subdivision of the city of Athens, which was what suggested

the term to me. The biologists obviously had the idea of the transferred
meaning first.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

John, you wrote above:

> My copy of Outlook Express has apparently been corrupted and I have lost
two
> weeks' messages, so I  can't recall exactly what Roger said about
"parish",

All issues of Lowlands-L are archived, and the archive is accessible here:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> case of Scots?  Would you then say that these three varieties scored
lower
> before official recognition, that they where then closer to

The questions I suggested were intended to reflect the sort of things
people
in general use in coming to a personal decision on whether one language is
a
dialect of another. So I would say in general that people do include
invalid
reasoning along with the valid in coming to such conclusions and,
therefore,
yes, people (especially those who aren't the victims of the official
regime)
would score a variety lower before official recognition. Nevertheless an
analysis of such attitudes would be valuable in itself in order to reach an

understanding of why people misjudge the standing of a language variety
even
when it's their own.

To reach a more scientific conclusion, one would of course want to
eliminate
or modify invalid questions.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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