LL-L: "Language planning" (was "Help needed") LOWLANDS-L, 06.OCT.2000 (08) [E]

Fri Oct 6 23:04:28 UTC 2000

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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Help needed" LOWLANDS-L, 06.OCT.2000 (06) [E]

Nigel Smith [lists at intexta.com] wrote:
>
> My feeling is that the development of a not-too-colloquial register
suitable
> for public notices is a more important project for lesser-used
languages
> than, say, the development of a whole scientific vocabulary.

You raise an extremely important point here, Nigel. Even in itself, it
has wider implications.

In the case of Scots, here in Ulster at least, this point has sort of
been recognized. However, my concern is that activists here have an
alarming tendency to describe this as "creating a formal register".

In the case of Scots and also, I believe, of Low Saxon, a "formal
register" already exists. "Formal English" tends to be a rather more
archaic, literary variety, and that is exactly the system I have used
for formal translations into Scots of NI Government documents. So, for
example, I would use 'aiblans' in formal documents and 'maybe'/'mebbe'
in informal documents (for 'perhaps'), because 'aiblans' is the more
archaic form. Words such as 'ere' (early), 'unco' (very, unusually,
especially) and 'wit'/'wat' (know) would be considered literary, and
so they would also be reserved for formal registers, and replaced
(more or less) by 'earlie', 'gey'/'baeordinar' and 'knaw' in informal
texts. The obsolescent negative form 'kenna(e)' might also be used
formally, as might certain grammatical constructions (such as the
subjunctive). I would accept the spelling 'yin' (one) in informal
texts, but never formally.

This is merely to indicate that the issue has been raised. There is
still a major fear among most Ulster Scots activists of being seen as
'too close to English', but in fact the reality is that they receive
more ridicule by doing precisely the opposite and 'inventing' a formal
register (as distinct from the literary one already in existence).

Overall, Nigel, I can tell you only that the major problem is that the
whole thing lacks leadership. Once somebody is appointed to manage
these things, then the development of a formal register and a register
for signs (such as the one suggested) will progress rapidly. But until
then it will be subject to often ill-advised decisions from lots of
different angles, often made by people entirely unqualified to make
them.

A very interesting point, and I look forward to reading other
Lowlanders' contributions on the subject.
----------------
Ian James Parsley

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Help needed"

Ron wrote, with respect to Low Saxon:

> Should our language gradually acquire formal registers, I personally
would
> have no problem with basing these in part on corresponding
> registers in German
> and Dutch.  I would not favor basing it on German only.

In the case of Scots it wouldn't be true to say that the
language doesn't have formal registers, since there are
many pre-Union documents written in Scots. Here are some
examples from the quite extensive "Regality Court Book of
Falkirk and Callendar" (1638 onwards):

"The quhilk day it is statute and ordainit that na induellar
within the burgh of Falkirk hant or ressave any sturdie
beggeris nor lawfull persones in any time cuming salbe
banyschit furth of the said burgh thameselffis and pey
penaltie the soume of ten pundis money"

While most of this sort of language is no longer relevant
to modern Scots, I think a study of it with a view to
obtaining enlightenment in high-register modern Scots
could be rewarding, as long as the aim is to seek out
phraseology that is still easily recognisable to modern
speakers, rather than trying to resuscitate material
that's long dead. Another example:

"Item that na persone mak gait throw thair nychtboris
gras or cornes under the paine of X li"

While there's nothing directly useful in this example,
I think it can be worthwhile to consider the details of
it, eg, the use of "mak" rather than "maks", "neebors"
for referring to the general populace, and high-register
idiom such as "mak gate throu".

It would indeed be nice if I could get this whole book
up on ScotsteXt for the study of anyone who is interested
in the formal Scots register, but my copy is a 1991
reprint and I haven't been able to sort out the copyright
issues yet.

These old legal books can also be tragicomically entertaining...

"Decernes Robert Rankeine in Middilrig to mak payment to
Agnes Stirling in Raschiehill the sowme of thretteine
schillings four pennyis as for the price of ane aix borrowit
be him from the said Agnes the space of twelve yeiris since..."

"Compeirit Helen Johnstoune spous to John Muirheid in Backraw
and actit and obleist hir selff that scho would not scheir any
grase in the meydowis of Falkirk or maynis of Callender nather
that scho sould flyte or skald with any persone within the
toune of Falkirk..."

"The quhilk day Thomas Brown in Falkirk is decernit and ordanit
To mak payment to Janet Flyming spous to David McGibbone The
soume of fyve merk and that for sustentatioune of ane bairn
quhilk was gottine in fornicatioune betwix him and the said
Janet for the space of ane zeir nixtheirefter."

Decernies James Levingstoune to pay to John Levingstoune maltman
threi furlattis outfeild aittis quhilk was eittine be the said
James his hors..."

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language planning

Sandy,

You can certainly find such formal register in Low Saxon (Low German) also,
namely in older, mostly pre-18th century documents.  Reading them feels
similar to reading those older Scots texts, I dare say.  However, I'm not all
that sure this is very helpful or even relevant to the development of a formal
register in Modern Low Saxon which has been pretty much without it since the
end of that era.

In written Low Saxon works from Northern Germany you will often notice various
degrees of "proper" style, namely attempts in the direction of elevated style
and register.  This may be in phrasing as well as in spelling (e.g., avoiding
contractions, duplication and {verb+do}, even though these are normal in
almost any speech mode).  For instance (and I'm making this up), one might say
in normal speech mode, _De Keerl, wat sien Baas is, de maakt jümmer so'n
Weeswark vunwegen allens, wat em nich in'n Kraam passen dait_ 'The guy who is
his boss always makes such a big deal about everything that doesn't suit him',
but one might write something like _Sien Baas maakt jümmer so een Weeswark,
wenn em wat nich topass kümmt_ 'His boss always makes such a fuss when
something does not suit him'.  So, at least in writing there seems to be a
"proper form" tendency already, but nothing definite by any stretch of the
imagination.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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