LL-L: "Morphophonology" LOWLANDS-L, 13.OCT.2000 (02) [E]

Fri Oct 13 17:14:05 UTC 2000

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Morphophonology" LOWLANDS-L, 12.OCT.2000 (03) [E/Danish]

What I am wondering is whether the def. article in
front-of-substantive phenomen applies to most of
western-Jutland as well, I only know that this is a
substantial part of Soenderjysk, the southern
Jutlandic dialect which used to extend from
Kolding/Esbjerg all the way down to Rendsborg and
Egernfoerde in Slesvig-Holsten, what I neither know is
whether this is due to an anglo-saxon-jutish
substratum or whether this is simply due to the fact
that -as far as I know- all nordic languages had
origionally the def. article in front of the
substantive, I remember reading that somewhere. In
that sense Soenderjysk would be even more conservative
than Icelandic is.

Another explanation I have to give to the fact that
many non-soenderjysk-Danes believe that the
Soenderjysk dialect and accent  sounds like German,
this is actually not true in the sense that it very
well sounds by pronouciation like the adjacent Low
Saxon and Frisian dialects but both have to ordinary
Germans a very distinctive pronouciation (mentioning
the r-pronouciation beforehand) which is also the
accent the Slesvigers, as far as they have been raised
in Soenderjysk, Frisian or Low Saxon, put upon High
German and Danish. It is just that Danes usually meet
German speakers with those accents first when
travelling south and they believe this is ordinary
German, it is not at all, you might start in Hanover
or the Ruhr-Valley and then further south, those are
the dialects of which High German has been set up. The
international border between Denmark and Germany has
only been an effective devide-line in the last 50
years, the Slesvigers had very well their own identity
including all the languages spoken in the area but now
this identity has been carved up by Denmark and
Germany due to nationalism.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Morphophonology

Moin, Helge, Lowlanders!

I basically agree with you.  All things are relative.  What to you and me may
sound like a Low Saxon (Low German) "accent" is likely to sound like a German
"accent" to a person from Denmark (probably not so much to an ethnic Dane from
Germany anymore).  Obviously this is because the only or main type of "German"
Danes used to be exposed to was first Low Saxon and later Low Saxon and
Low-Saxon- (and Frisian-) influenced German.  Don't forget that both used to
be sold as "German" and even now after official recognition of LS are still
considered varieties of German in many people's minds.  Sure; many Danes know
that there are _højtysk_ and _plattysk_ (or more sophisticated: _nedertysk_),
the latter of which so strongly changed their own language(s).  However,
_tysk_ is the operative word here, just as _Deutsch_ is in German:
_Hochdeutsch_ and _Plattdeutsch_/_Niederdeutsch_).  What's in a name?  A lot.

German on Low Saxon and, on the west coast, Frisian substrates used to be the
only kinds of "High German" spoken in the North.  This changed only gradually
at first, certainly not very much under Danish rule of various parts of
Schleswig-Holstein. Given these circumstances, to the ear of speakers of
Standard Danish (_rigsdansk_) the two "German" varieties must have sounded
rather similar, and Southern Jutish shares several of the phonological
features that to Danish ears sound(ed) strinkingly "German," as they
traditionally knew "German" to sound.

It is only since the beginning of the second half of the 20th century that the
Low Saxon language in North Germany took a real nose dive and Low Saxon
"accents" of Northerners' German started to disappear.  This was to a large
extent due to increased immigration from Eastern Europe, the Mediterranian
area and Southern Germany, and in part to the nationalizing influences of the
education system and the electronic media.  The number of younger Northerners
with a Northern "accent" is dramatically declining.  You who live in Northern
Germany may not be as aware of this as much as those of us who live abroad and
visit only occasionally.  (My older sister speaks very differently from my
youngest sister, and there are seventeen years between them.  The youngest one
has no or only a weak Northern "accent", but even my older sister's
pronunciation has changed to become less Northern over her lifetime.)  Danes
who learn German now learn "proper" German, the more "neutral" type, the type
that is also being promoted by Denmark's German minority (which seems to have
pretty much lost Low Saxon).  However, the description of Southern Jutish as
"sounding German" has probably taken on a life of its own and is being handed
down as a type of tradition.

Of course, north of the border things are pretty much the mirror image of
this.  What to speakers of Low Saxon and Northern German used to be "Danish"
(_Deensch_/_Dänish_) was mostly Southern Jutish and Southern-Jutish-influenced
Danish.  In fact, Southern Jutish (_sønderjysk_) used to be and often still is
referred to as LS _Plattdeensch_ and G _Plattdänish_ (sometimes LS
_Kartüffeldeensch_ and G _Kartoffeldänisch_ "potato Danish"), as opposed to LS
_Hoogdeensch_ and G _Hochdänisch_ for Standard Danish (_rigsdansk_), i.e.,
imposing the German naming system on the situation in Denmark.  These days,
Germans who learn Danish mostly learn "proper Danish," and it is only some of
those in the general border region (north and south of the border) that may be
able to speak Southern Jutish or Southern-Jutish-influenced Danish.  Also, as
far as I know, Standard Danish is used in Germany's Danish schools and
kindergartens (which primarily serve the Danish minority but are also utilized
by many ethnic Germans), and Southern Jutish is being ignored just as Low
Saxon is being ignored in German schools and kindergartens.

Originally, like the border between the Netherlands and Germany, the border
between Denmark and Germany was culturally and linguistically "soft."  (And
the latter shifted many times, at one point in time being as far south as to
include as Danish territory Altona, now a part of Hamborg/Hamburg.)  That is
to say that the local language varieties used to be used on both sides of the
border.  Dramatically increasing national centralization seems to be hardening
the border, moving in the direction of the political border coinciding with a
linguistic border between Standard Danish and Standard German.  In my opinion,
this is not a good thing, or is not *all* good, because that which functioned
as a border-region link, as a handshake between two nations, is being lost:
Southern Jutish with it's Saxon-like features, and Far Northern Low Saxon with
its Scandinavian-like features (e.g., _eller_ for _oder_ or _or_ 'or', and
consistent realization of _s_ as [s]), and communities in which Danish,
Southern Jutish, Low Saxon and German are used and understood by many.  It
would be nice if this common, linking heritage could be continued and
cherished.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================