LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

Ron hef schreven:
>
>I am not sure if Low Saxon _wä(h)len_ [ve:ln] and _Waal_ ~ _Wahl_ [vQ:l] are
>inherent or German loans.  Does anyone know?  They coexist with _kören_
>[kø:An] and _Köör_ [kø:A] with the same respective meanings.
>
I can't say yes or no Ron, but what I can say is that I have never used
"wählen".
I always use "kiezen", but that's probably a Dutch loan.

Henry

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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I was very interested to find the Scots verb _wale_ 'to choose', 'to elect'.
> (I assume it is pronounced [we:l].)  It appears to be a cognate of German and
> Low Saxon _wählen_  'to choose', 'to elect' (the noun 'election' or 'choice'
> being _Wahl_).
>
> I am not sure if Low Saxon _wä(h)len_ [ve:ln] and _Waal_ ~ _Wahl_ [vQ:l] are
> inherent or German loans.  Does anyone know?  They coexist with _kören_
> [kø:An] and _Köör_ [kø:A] with the same respective meanings.
>
> Is _wale_ inherently Scots, i.e., is there an Old English ancestral word?
> Modern English does not seem to have a cognate.  Or does it?  A loan from
> Dutch?  I don't find cognates in Modern Dutch and Afrikaans.  Or are there
> any?  A Saxonism?  A Low Saxon loanword (Hanseatic connection)?

Dear Reinhard,

The word `walen' with the meaning `to choose/elect' appears in WNT, and
is said there to be a Germanism, that was only found in dictionaries and
one other text. So a Dutch lean seems highly unlikely.

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Thanks for your responses, Henry and Floor.

Floor, this may be a stupid question.  What does "WNT" stand for?

Henry, you wrote:

> I can't say yes or no Ron, but what I can say is that I have never used > "wählen".

I'm not surprised, Henry.  For some reason it seems like a German loan to me,
though at the moment I can't confirm that it is.

> I always use "kiezen", but that's probably a Dutch loan.

It could be.  I have a hunch that _kören_ is the old Low Saxon (Low German)
verb for it.  However, I also believe that Dutch (and Low Saxon?) _kiezen_ is
related to _kören_, that we are dealing with this old r~z variation that is
apparent even between Low Saxon dialects; e.g.,

'to lose' /...z/
(cf. German: verlieren /...r.../)

verleren ~ verlesen
(/...r.../ ~ /...z.../)

Present:
ick verleer ~ verlees'
du verleerst ~ verlüsst
he/se/dat~et~it verleert ~ verlüst
wie/jie/se verleert ~ verleest ~ verleren ~ verlesen

Preterite:
ick verloor ~ verlöör ~ verlöös'
du verloorst ~ verlöörst ~ verlöösst
he/se/dat~et~it verloor ~ verlöör ~ verlöös'
wie/jie/se verloren ~ verlören ~ verlösen

Past participle:
verloren
(apparently not *verlosen)

(_ö(ö)_ here [{oe}I]; _e(e)_ here [EI]; _...s'_ [...z], rarely *[...s])

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 08.SEP.2000 (03) [E]

At 09:11 08/09/00 -0700, R. F. Hahn wrote:
>I was very interested to find the Scots verb _wale_ 'to choose', 'to elect'.
>(I assume it is pronounced [we:l].)

In the north-east, at least, it rhymes with "while".

Colin Wilson.

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