LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 03.APR.2001 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

=======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 03.APR.2001 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Place names" (was "Pronunciation") LOWLANDS-L,
03.APR.2001 (05) [E/S]

A chairde,

I'm hardly surprised by the treatment of Low Saxon,
but that never mitigates the sadness. But let's be
constructive, unite and get on with protesting against
injustice.

Henry's posting reminded to ask a question I've
wondered about for some time: with regards to
nationalities and self-perception, do the speakers of
Low Saxon consider themselves part of a "Low Saxon
nation" or just "Low Saxon-speaking Germans"? Or is
"Germanness" a kind of unifying state imposition, much
as being "British" is in the United Kingdom despite
its numerous constituent nations (English [north and
south, Geordie, Scouse, Mancunian, et al], Cornish,
Welsh, Scots, "Ulster British/Northern Irish" and
Irish [i.e., those of us within the Six Counties who
consider ourselves fully Irish but under Britsih
jurisdiction])?
What about Limburgers - do they consider themselves
Limburgish or Dutch or both? And Zeelanders?

This question has been preying on my mind for a while!

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Críostóir.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language politics

Críostóir asked above:

> Henry's posting reminded to ask a question I've
> wondered about for some time: with regards to
> nationalities and self-perception, do the speakers of
> Low Saxon consider themselves part of a "Low Saxon
> nation" or just "Low Saxon-speaking Germans"? Or is
> "Germanness" a kind of unifying state imposition, much
> as being "British" is in the United Kingdom despite
> its numerous constituent nations (English [north and
> south, Geordie, Scouse, Mancunian, et al], Cornish,
> Welsh, Scots, "Ulster British/Northern Irish" and
> Irish [i.e., those of us within the Six Counties who
> consider ourselves fully Irish but under Britsih
> jurisdiction])?

Críostóir, I definitely cannot speak for the Low Saxon speakers in the
Netherlands and only to a limited degree for those of Northern Germany.

I guess it depends on whom you ask.  However, I am under the distinct
impression that the overwhelming majority of Low Saxon (Low German) speakers
in Germany consider themselves ethnically German, albeit of the Northern
"persuasion," not rarely proudly so.  They tend to consider themselves
somewhat separate from other Germans, certainly from Swabians, Bavarians,
Thuringians and other "Southerners" who traditionally consider the former a
part of "the Prussians" (and this is rarely meant to be a compliment).  The
old devision between Protestant heritage predominance in the North and Roman
Catholic heritage predominance in the the South adds to this perceived
cultural divide.  However, in the few decades I have been on this planet I
have noticed German "mainstreaming" among Northerners at an accelerating
pace.  (A shift away from Low-Saxon-influenced German dialects, especially
lexically, is very striking to me everytime I visit Northern Germany.)

Integration of Saxons in the "German" fold goes back a long time, starting
with the subjugation of the Saxons by Charlemagne.  (In German history lessons
he is portrayed as a Christian hero who showed the "pagan" Saxons the right
way, although thinking people of Saxon descent may not necessarily agree with
that portrayal.  In 782 at Verden, after a Saxon uprising, he ordered 4,500
Saxons beheaded.)  Already long before now, "German" included the Low Saxons
and Low Franconians, also the people we now know as "Dutch" -- hence the name
"Dutch" (cf. _duytsch_, _düütsch_, _duits_, _deutsch_, etc.), confusion of the
Pennsylvania Germans with "Dutch", the male nickname "Dutch" for Americans of
German or Dutch descent, and older references to Dutch institutions as
"Nederduits" (e.g., "Nederduitse Gereformeerde Kerke" for the Netherlands
Reformed Church), not to mention _diets(ch)_ in reference to certain Lowlands
language varieties.  Political separation and independence from what was or
was going to be Germany allowed the Dutch language to break free and become
the official dominant language of what are now the Netherlands and Northern
Belgium.  I dare say that otherwise they would have ended up being stamped
"German dialects" the way Low Saxon and Limburgish dialects of Germany did.

I have a sneaking suspicion that, besides the traditional idea of "one country
- one language" and the traditionally propagated view of a German continuum
(Low German - Middle German - High German), a stumbling block in recognizing
"Low German" as an independent language was the fact/perception that its
speakers do not also belong to an official ethnic minority, given the
traditional European view that linguistic and ethnic boundaries coincide or
ought to coincide.  I also suspect that this is the reason why Low Saxon/Low
German has been recognized as a "regional" language (in both countries) rather
than as a minority language (like Danish, Frisian, Sorbian and Romani).
However, I am not sure about this.

Other Lowlanders may have different views on this.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================