LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 06.APR.2001 (01) [E]

Fri Apr 6 17:39:37 UTC 2001

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L O W L A N D S - L * 06.APR.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (07) [E]

Dear Marco, Reinhard and all,

> From: Marco Evenhuis [evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (06) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> > In Low Saxon (Low German) of Northern Germany, too, _us_ [?Us] or _uns_
> > [?U.ns] 'our' is often used before the name of one's own family member
> when
> > talking about a member of one's own family to someone inside or outside
> the
> > family.
>
> Same here in Zeeland, in all the ways Ron described: ons/onzen Jan gae mee
> de dochter van Jan van Keulen; die van ons (our daughter) ei nog nie vee
> omkiek; ons vaoder gae ge-werke... Furthermore, in some situations 'ons' is
> used in stead of 'our family: ons è daè nooit an meegedae; ons è aoltied ao
> verergeweert mee die van Louwerse; ons trouwe nie mee Bastiaanses.
> I always felt this use of 'ons' as part of Zelandic, since I haven't heard
> anyone using it in Dutch, I've only seen it in written form. I think that in
> Dutch these ways of using 'ons' are at least old-fashioned.

This use of _our_ is also very general in Brabantic, at least on the
Dutch side of the border. Expressions like "'(n)s pa", "'(n)s Mieke" are
used with all kinds of relatives, except partners. I have always felt it
is used as a way to express the value of family ties.

The name of the famous cow statue in Ljouwert/Leeuwarden "u's mem" shows
that this might have been in use in Fryslân as well, but I havent heard
so myself.

Kind regards,
Floor.

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From: Pepijn Hendriks [pepijnh at bigfoot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (06) [E]

R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com] wrote:

>In Low Saxon (Low German) of Northern Germany, too, _us_ [?Us] or
>_uns_ [?U.ns] 'our' is often used before the name of one's own family
>member when talking about a member of one's own family to someone
>inside or outside the family.  [...]

>Don't you find them in Dutch and Afrikaans too?

Dutch indeed has a similar use of the words, but it is not standard
usage. I know that it is used throughout Noord-Brabant, suspect
that it is used in Limburg as well, and know that people in the
Randstad are not familiar with it. I don't know about the other
provinces.

I don't use the words myself, but my observations are the following:

In the western part of Noord-Brabant, parents can be referred to as
_ons ma_ [sma:] and _ons pa_ [spa:] (but not when addressing
them). In the eastern part _ons mam_ and _ons pap_ seem to be
favoured.

Other examples of use: _ons_ would be used by my mother to refer
to her brother: _ons Pieter_. If in the same sentence my father's
sister pops up, this will be _jullie Lenie_. In-laws are excluded from
this: _Ons Pieter en Janneke_, referring to my uncle and aunt
(married to eachother), or _Jullie Lenie en Dees_, referring to my
aunt and uncle. This is perhaps the most distinct usage I am aware
of. _Ons_ can be used by parents or siblings when referring to son,
daughter or brother and sister respectively. _Jullie_ would then be
used by outsiders: if my mother asked the neighbour how her son is
doing these days, this would be _Hoe is 't met jullie Mark?_.

-Pepijn

--
 pepijnh at gmx.net -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~pepijnh -- ICQ - 6033220

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From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at saxnot.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (07) [E]

Marco Evenhuis schreev:
>
>I always felt this use of 'ons' as part of Zelandic, since I haven't heard
>anyone using it in Dutch, I've only seen it in written form. I think that in
>Dutch these ways of using 'ons' are at least old-fashioned.
>
How about Brabants? My ex-mother-in-law used "ons" all the time.
"ons pa", "ons ma", and just "ons" meaning "we", "the family".

regards,
Henry Pijffers

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From: Legato [legato at pt.lu]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship" LOWLANDS-L, 05.APR.2001 (07) [E]

>>From Carina van Tonder in Luxembourg:
"Ons" - in Afrikaans we use this word a lot.
Ons huis.
Ons kinders.
Ons land.
Ons taal.
In anything that means it belongs to us. Not only to a group of people
neatly defined, like family , but also to a group of people in the wider
sense.
"Ons" would also be used instead of our family as Marco is stating here.
Ons is verwant aan die Gerbers (Our family is(We are)  related to the
Gerbers) of
Ons doen nie so nie( this is not the way of our family)
dit is nie in ons aard nie(very much the same as above; the above
referring
to the actions and the latter to the inner spirit).
When speaking about ourselves in a group, family or otherwise we would
refer
to ourselves as
"ons".
Ons gaan met vakansie. (We are going on holiday)
So I am happy to see that the same structure is used by other people too.
I
do have noticed that the Dutch people do understand when I used  the "ons"
instead on the "we" when speaking to them.
Carina van Tonder

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