LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 23.JAN.2001 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JAN.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology"

Ron had written:

> > The _Duden_ people assume that the ultimate source of
> > the European derivations is Greek _taô's_.  Greek /t-/ >
> Latin > /p-/?!

My English dictionary also says they are "obscurely related".  I
can hardly imagine a Roman hearing Greek _taô's_ and turning
ithe _t_into _p_; I've never seen that happen.  The one thing
that occurs to me is that it could have come from *kwa:w-.
Proto-Indoeuropean *kw yields Greek _t_ before _i, e_ and _p_
before _a, o_,  and it yields _p_ in Italic languages other than
Latin-- but that hardly helps, since the Greek doesn't really
match up, Latin didn't borrow many words from the other the
p-dialects, and the word seems to be a loan from Persia, not
inherited.

and he wrote:

> As for the /-luun/ part, it would be interesting to find out
> the etymology of Russian _pavlín_, for this _...lín_ may be
> relevant here, as may be the Low Saxon (Low German) propensity
> for vowel rounding with or without labial environment --
> whether there is a Low-Saxon-Russian connection or not.

Would Low Saxon likelier round _lin_ to _luun_ or to _lüün_?

Could the -uun/luun (and maybe the Russian -lin) be a
pseudofrench ending, tacked on to make a foreign word look
"properly foreign"?  I had that gut reaction, but I haven't
thought of any good basis to pin that on.

Stefan

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From: Henry Pijffers [henry.pijffers at fluffyonline.cjb.net]
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:
>
>I know that in Henry's Twente dialect monophthong long or
>lengthened /ö/ is raised to [y], but apparently also only before /-
>r/, hence /fö(ö)r/ > [fy(:)3] 'for'.  Or did I get that wrong, Henry?
>
If you mean we say "für" instead of "för", and "düre" (door)
instead of "dör", yes, that's correct. I don't know if it's only
before /-r/, haven't thought about that yet, but you may be
right there too. Will let you know when I find out...

Henry Pijffers

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Stefan wrote:

> Would Low Saxon likelier round _lin_ to _luun_ or to _lüün_?

Quite so, at least in those dialects that "prefer" /ü/.  Thus, you get for
example _Licht_ ~ _Lücht_ 'light', 'lamp', 'lantern'.  However, some dialects,
for instance many in Eastern Friesland, tend to have /u/ where other dialects
have /ü/, so you get many variants, e.g., _Krück_ ~ _Kruck_ 'crotch', 'crook',
_Krüll_ ~ _Krull_ 'curl', _Rüsch_ ~ _Rüüsch_ ~ _Rush_ 'rush(es)', _smüüstern_
~ _smuustern_ 'to smile', 'to look amused', _nösseln_ ~ _nüsseln_ ~ _nusseln_
'to work in a fussy, slow way', _günnen_ ~ _gunnen_ 'deign', 'treat', _günt_ ~
_gunt_ 'yonder'.

Henry wrote:

> Ron wrote:
> >
> >I know that in Henry's Twente dialect monophthong long or
> >lengthened /ö/ is raised to [y], but apparently also only before /-
> >r/, hence /fö(ö)r/ > [fy(:)3] 'for'.  Or did I get that wrong, Henry?
> >
> If you mean we say "für" instead of "för", and "düre" (door)
> instead of "dör", yes, that's correct.

That's exactly what I mean.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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