LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 24.JAN.2001 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

 ======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.JAN.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
 =======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
 =======================================================================

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Grammar

I don't recall anybody mentioning adjectives in relation to the "dill"
problem. One might again see limitations on adapting nouns to
other grammatical forms, so that "marjoramy" or "oreganoey" appear
unacceptable, but the generative power of "-y" seems very high. In addition
to "sugary", "salty", "peppery", "vinegary", which are all "proper"
dictionary words it is not hard to think of a "mustardy flavour".
Advertisers like to claim things like "wheaty goodness". (And "crispy" has
replaced "crisp".) I've just checked my Chambers Dictionary and it contains
"minty" but not "minted", although I can buy frozen "minted" peas in the
supermarket. ("Minty" is not in my Word 97 BE spellchecker dictionary.)

BTW, beer can be both "hopped" and "hoppy".

"Dill pickle" for a pickled cucumber (or gherkin?) flavoured with dill seems
a slightly odd expression. According to Chambers Etymological Dictionary it
is only recorded from 1906, when it occurred in the works of O. Henry, who
therefore may have invented it. On the other hand it is a staple of Jewish
cuisine so I wondered if the name might be a translation from Yiddish or
some other language. In BE, I think, "pickle" as a delectable is normally a
mixture of fruits, vegetables or both. Is there are definable difference
between "pickle" and "chutney"?

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Grammar

John wrote above:

> "Dill pickle" for a pickled cucumber (or gherkin?) flavoured with dill
> seems
> a slightly odd expression. According to Chambers Etymological Dictionary > it
> is only recorded from 1906, when it occurred in the works of O. Henry,
> who
> therefore may have invented it. On the other hand it is a staple of
> Jewish
> cuisine so I wondered if the name might be a translation from Yiddish or
> some other language.

I do not think it comes from Yiddish.  I certainly do not find it in any
Yiddish dictionary.  The normal way of saying "pickle(d cucumber(s))" is
_zoyere ugerke(s)_ "sour cucumber(s)".  You will find the German equivalent
_saure Gurken_ used in this sense also.  This implies the default recipe:
cucumbers preserved in vinegar, usually with spices added (German
_Gewürzguke(n)_ "spice-cucumber(s)").  In some parts of Germany and in Central
and Eastern Europe you also get salt-pickled cucumbers, _Salzgurken_ in
German, _Sultgurken_ in Low Saxon (Low German), called 'salt pickles' by
Americans who are familiar with them.  I am not sure about the Yiddish
equivalent but would guess it is *_zalc-ugerkes_.  (c=[ts])

'Dill' is _krop_ in Yiddish (cf. Russian _ukróp_).  I am not aware of any
verbal derivations of it, and I have never come across anything like
*_krop-ugerkes_ ("dill cucumbers"), *_kropdike ugerkes_ ("dill-having
cucumbers") or even *_zoyere ugerkes mit krop_ ("sour cucumbers with dill").
I understand that _zoyere ugerkes_ implies that dill is used, since this seems
to be the  default recipe.  It is the equivalent of German _Gewürzgurken_.  In
German you also  get the compound noun _Dillgurken_ ("dill-cucumbers") where a
lot of dill is used.

Note that in these kinds of cases past-participle-derived adjectives (like
"dilled"), albeit available, tend to be used less than compound nouns in
German and Yiddish (German _Salzgurken_ rather than _gesalzene Gurken_,
_Gewürzgurke_ rather than _gewürzte Gurken_) because "salted" and "spiced"
would imply adding salt or spices, while the compound nouns ("salt cucumbers"
and "spice cucumbers") show "salt" and "spice" are identifiers, make the
recipes.  Where dill is considered the identifier I would therefore expect a
compound noun (*_krop-ugerkes_), like German _Dillgurken_, rather than
something like *_gekropte ugerkes_ (German *_gedillte Gurken_).

As far as I know, German and Yiddish are not as liberal in deriving verbs from
nouns the way English is.  Thus you get Y _zalc_ 'salt' > _(ba)zalcn_ 'to
salt' (G _Salz_ > _salzen_), and you get _gevirc_ 'spice' > _vircn_,
_farvircn_, _cuvircn_ 'to spice' (G (_Wurz_ 'wort' >) _Gewürz_ 'spice' >
_würzen_ 'to spice').  That is pretty much it, I believe (though German also
has _Zucker_ > _zuckern_ and _Pfeffer_ > _pfeffern_).  I would be very
surprised to find that _krop_ 'dill' > *_kropn_ 'to dill' is an option in
Yiddish.

Incidentally, _salt_ is also listed as an adjective in English, but it is said
that it is "not gradable" and appears only before nouns, e.g., "salt water,"
"salt cod."  How can you tell that it is an adjective here and not the first
component of a compound noun?

I *have* heard a few times in England and Australia people using _salt_ as a
true adjective in the sense of "salty" (e.g., "the water is salt").  I assume
it is rare and perhaps archaic.  Does any of you use it?

In some Low Saxon (Low German) you can also use the adjectives _sult_ ~
_solt_, besides _sulten_ ~ _solten_, derived from the noun _Sult_ ~ _Solt_
'salt'.  I have a feeling that _sult_ ~ _solt_ only denotes '(too) salty',
while _sulten_ ~ _solten_ means 'salty' or 'salted', depending on the
context.  Am I right?

Likewise, Dutch has _zout_ 'salt' > _zout_ 'salty' (*_sout_ > *_sout_ in
Afrikaans?), and Westerlauwer ("West") Frisian has _sâlt_ 'salt' > _sâlt_
'salty', apparently as the only options for 'salty'.

Norwegian has _salt_ 'salt' > _salt_ 'salty' (e.g., Dano-Norwegian _Sjøvann er
salt_ 'Ocean water is salty', _suppa er altfor salt_ 'the soup is too salty',
likewise Nynorsk _Sjøvatn er salt_, _Suppa er altfor salt_).  It is the same
in Danish and Swedish, isn't it?

However, German does not have _Salz_ 'salt' > *_salz_, but only _salzig_
'salty'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
 =======================================================================