LL-L "Language varieties" 2001.10.30 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2001 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2000.10.28 (03) [E]

May I add that I have the impression that those words
which are similar to Scandinasvian words in Northern
Low Saxon are not understood by the Western dialects,
as e.g. LS "luett", DK "lille", NL "Kleen" or LS
"toef", DK "toeve", meaning rather "hesitate" in
Danish and NL "Wachten" or LS "Freemark", DK
"Frimaerke", NL "Zegel", sentences like "set di daal"
or "wat wud du dar" are not understood by Groningers
but are understood by Danish people, the German
influenced words are much rather understood by
Groningers then those mentioned above. This
observation is derived from a work-colleague from
Usquerd, north of Groningen and by my Danish
family-part. This also appears to be the case for the
differences between Frisian from North Friesland and
Frisian from the Provincie Frislan, most of the North
Frisian Dialects are very much influenced by Danish.
It is difficult to say whether Low Saxon influenced
Scandinavian here or vice-a-versa but a lot of it is
simply common Jutlandic vocabulary, one is not to
forget that Slesvig-Holsten was for centuries part of
the Danish Kingdom which left its mark on the Low
Saxon and Frisian variant in Slesvig-Holsten.

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From: R. F. hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Above, Helge makes an important point I think.  While it is fairly well known
that Low Saxon (Low German) strongly influenced the Scandinavian languages,
most especially Southern Jutish and Danish (and also, directly or indirectly,
the Baltic and Balto-Finnic languages as well as Kashubian and, to a lesser
degree, Russian), Southern Jutish and Danish influence on Low Saxon is
considerable and goes back a long way, culminating at the time of Danish
dominion over what are now the northernmost parts of Germany, at times all the
way south to what are now parts of Hamburg (including, e.g., Altona).
Naturally, most of this North Germanic influence is noticeable in
Schleswig-Holstein and gradually peters out toward the south.  However, I
would not be surprised if some such elements made their way into other
dialects (considering the large number of published Low Saxon writers from
Schleswig-Holstein), but I would not expect them to have reached the far west
and the far east, certainly not Low Saxon dialects of the Netherlands.

We would do well to remember that the difference between "dialect" and
"language" is and will remain illusive, and that languages, especially closely
related languages in a geographic continuum, do not come as neat, clearly
distinguishable dialect bundles that remain pure and true to their respective
ancestors.  This is a naive expectation based on differences between (partly
artifical) standard varieties of what we have come to see as languages.
Especially Low Saxon and Dutch exist in a fairly smooth continuum, at least if
seen within the great scheme of things.  Sure, you could go by isoglottic fine
points or try to distinguish Low Saxon and Dutch language and culture by such
things as the borderline between Saxon vs Frankish homestead architecture, but
these are relatively minute differences and are irrelevant to the average
person of today.  The picture is by no means clear, complicated especially
where Low Saxon has Frisian substrates (from the eastern parts of Fryslân in
the Netherlands all the way up to today's German-Danish border) and where it
has West Slavic substrates (eastard from Eastern Holstein, Hamburg, Lunenburg
and Hanover).  This is not to say that Dutch and Low Saxon cannot and should
not be seen as two entities.  Their speakers, certainly Low Saxon speakers,
perceive them as being two entities, though distinguishing criteria may vary
from person to person.

There are relatively few striking differences between Dutch and far-western
Low Saxon dialects and between Southern Jutish and far-northern Low Saxon
dialects, as Holger Weigelt and Helge Tietz have previously explained. Mutual
comprehension between what are perceived as languages tends to be fairly good
in those areas, perhaps better than between speakers of those Low Saxon
dialects and the Low Saxon dialects of the far south or far east.
We also need to bear in mind the important roles played by mutual exposure and
psychological aspects such as desire to understand each other and confidence
in one's ability to learn to understand each other.  In the Lowlands area,
multilingual populations such as those around today's Netherlands-German
border (Dutch, Low Saxon, German, Frisian) and around today's Danish-German
border (Southern Jutish, Danish, Low Saxon, German, Frisian) prove that
exposure and an open mind facilitates mutual comprehension.  This is also what
we show or try to show on Lowlands-L, although lately postings in languages
other than English have become rare.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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