LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 10.JUL.2001 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUL.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Henno Brandsma" <henno_brandsma at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" [E]

>From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
>Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (06) [D/E]
>
>Dear Ron,
>
>you write in your explanations of Missingsch inter alias
>
> >I feel there is some
> >justification in comparing Missingsch to the _Stedsk_ or _Stedfrysk_
>("Urban
> >Frisian") contact varieties in the Netherlands that appear to be Dutch
>with
> >strong Frisian substrates and influences.

Indeed, but with the caveat that with Dutch we mean 16th century dialects
(mostly from the North-Holland area). And in modern times the strong Frisian
influence lessens, strangely enough through better knowledge of both Frisian
(=WLF) (and Dutch): a typical word like Town Frisian and also Frisian
_knibbel_ (= "knee") is felt to belong to the realm of Frisian, and hence is
in danger of being replaced by the Dutch equivalent _knie_. Syntax is more
resistant to Dutch, but even in Frisian syntax is sometimes yielding to
Dutch, in what Henk Wolf calls _Ynterferinsjefrysk_, typical of younger
generations of speakers.
So TF is no longer as Frisian-coloured as it used to be, it is eroding
quickly.

>Wouldn't it be also justified to compare it also to Scottish English (vs.
>Scots) as you indirectly have done somewhere later in your essay anyhow?
>
>So, without claiming that there is any identical relation, isn't there a
>row
>of some parallels, viz:
>
>German-Missingsch-Low Saxon
>Dutch-Stedfrysk (Stadfries)-Fries
>English-Scottish English-Scots

I think so. According to the Van Coetsem theory on substrata languages there
is a distinction between "core" parts of the language, like Syntax,
phonology, and morphology (of unstressed syllables especially), and
"peripheric" parts, like the vocabulary. When a person speaking Frisian/Low
Saxon/Scots tries to speak the dominant Dutch/German/English he will adhere
to the more core elements while changing the vocabulary and parts of the
morphology. Eg. Frisian word order and pronounciation elements are preserved
while the vocabulary becomes mostly Dutch (a common exception is the
adherence to "huis-, tuin en keukenwoorden" and specific agricultural words,
or words unique to the original language in connotation/semantics, like
"sleau" in Frisian eg.)
>>From what I have seen of Missingsch and Scottish English this seems to be a
correct model as well. For Town Frisian this has been checked by Van Bree
a.o.

> >From this comparison lot of questions could be triggered.
>Maybe you - or any other LL-er - would like to comment on the following
>two:
>
>1. The name of the hybrid form is given by the dominating language:
>'Scottish
>English' is English, and 'Missingsch' is German, I thought. Also, I believe
>(please tell me if I am wrong!), 'Stedfysk' is only a translation of the
>Dutch 'Stadsfries'. My question: is there a genuine expression in the other
>language?

Stadfries is indeed the name given by Dutch who judged it by the accent,
(guttural plosive g instead of fricative, nasalisation, falling diphthongs)
and some features (like lack of sch- (sk- instead) and lack of ge- in
particia perfecta). Frisians also call it _Ste^dsk_, speakers tend to call
it after their town, like _Luwadders_ (this is also done in Frisian, one
could also say _Ljouwertersk_).

[]

>2. You believe that Missingsch is moribund. Is also Scottish  English and
>Stedfrysk going to become extinct?

Stedfrysk is likely to become extinct in the larger cities like
Ljouwert/Leeuwarden. There only 10% or so still speak it, mostly elderly. It
is more tenacious though in the smaller cities like Harns/Harlingen (where
I'm from originally). I don't know the percentages though. Also the
varieties there tend to preserve more Frisian elements (there are many
subtle differences beween the towns).

>Mit herzlichen Grüßen
>
>Georg

Mei freonlike groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================