LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.JUL.2001 (01) [D/E/French]
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Sun Jul 22 20:23:56 UTC 2001
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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUL.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Roger Thijs" <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 21.JUL.2001 (01) [E]
> From: "W. Jaap Engelsman" <engelsma at euronet.nl>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Perhaps you can help me with the etymology of Dutch _flamoes_ (or
_flemoes_ or _flemoesj_), meaning 'cunt'. The stress is on /oe/. The
matter was brought up by Marc De Coster in a mailing list for Dutch
etymology.
> ..... The fact that _flemoesj_ is mentioned as Limburgish in recent
sources may merely reflect this general Dutch influence.
1. I can hardly find any link in Limburgish dictionaries, but these are
generally not focussed on porn vocabulary.
VENLO:
Alsters, ... in "Venloos Woordenboek" (1993) has
p. 126: "_flamboeës_" for "vrouwelijk geslachtsdeel"
(with a "b")
while p. 128: "framboeës" means "framboos" (raspberry)
WEERT:
Hermans ... in "De Weertlandse Dialecten" (1998) has
p. 96 flamboeës
and p. 98 framboeës
both only for the Dutch "framboos" (raspberry)
This r - l interchange is apparently also occuring in standard Dutch,
2. The van Dale CD-ROM does not only list framboos, but also flamboos.
--- quoting:
framboos
fram-boos
/frlmb'os/
frambozen
1554 Fr. framboise
I de
1 eetbare rode sappige vrucht van de framboos (II)
II de (m.)
1 een struik uit de fam. der Rosaceeën (Rubus idaeus)
-----
flamboos
flam-boos
/fllmb'os/
de; flambozen
1 (volksnaam voor de) framboos (zie aldaar)
---- endquote
All semantical links are to the raspberry only
flamoes is also on the Van Dale CD-ROM:
--- quote:
flamoes
fla-moes
/flam'us/, /fllm'us/
de; flamoezen
1901-1925 etymologie onbekend
(volkstaal)
1 vrouwelijk geslachtsdeel
synoniem: kut
--- endquote
> No one has been able to connect the word _flamoes_ convincingly to
other
> words, either in Dutch or in neighbouring languages or dialects.
> Pronunciation-based equivalents would be something like English
> _*flamoose_, _*flummooze_, French _*flamousse_, _*flamouche_, or
German
> _*Flamus_, _*Flamusch_.
3. We have in Belgian French (quoting Christian Delcourt, Dictionnaire
du français de Belgique, vol. 1, 1998, p. 216:
FLAMOUCHE .. , FLAMOUTCH..., FLAMOUTCHE...
Flamand (avec condescendance, mais sans hostilité)
1. Gentilé, "Eddy Merckx ... mini Hercule Poireaux de la parodie belge,
moqueurs de flamouches..." (L'Express, 15.01.1993, p. 8) ....
2. Langue. "Chouette petit CD pour les kids de 5 à 10 ans... une version
flamande. Et si on se mettait au flamoutche..." (The best of Mac news,
avril 1996, p. 58)....
Regards,
Roger
----------
From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: Etymology
Folks,
Having recently moved into deepest East Anglian Fenland,
I'm now getting intrigued by some of the words associated
with the region. Here are two to start with.
1. "Roddon" (var. Rodden, Rodham).
This refers to a meandering strip of slightly raised land
surface and it is typically the remnant of an ancient
watercourse (the silt deposition by the former river gives
the soil different properties; while the general land surface
descends -- often to below sea level -- through drying-out
from drainage, and through wind erosion and oxydation of
the peaty soil, the "roddon" soil is more resistant and
relatively retains more of its original height, thereby
standing proud of its surroundings).
I'm not finding "roddon" or variants in standard dictionaries.
Though the word is freely used in scholarly studies (of the geography,
geology and history of the region), it seems likely it is really a
local vernacular word. I'm wondering where it comes from.
A similar phenomenon must be equally well known in the flat
lands of Holland etc.; what is it called there?
(Some of these roddons are clearly ancient in their own right,
long pre-dating the 17th-century drainage of the Fens; some
were apparently exploited as places where dwellings could be
constructed, in the midst of the marshes, back in pre-Roman times).
2. "Gote" (?var. Goyt? Goit?)
Here I'm really groping. Near Wisbech is a cluster of settlements
of which major ones are Tydd St Mary and Tydd St Giles (by no means
big, though). Others (really tiny) are Tydd Gote and Four Gotes.
My question is: "What's a Gote?"
And then, possibly, "Whence the word?"
The sense of one piece of oldish text I've come across suggests it
may be a sluice (? sluice Gate->Gote ?).
An old map (Blaeu, 1648) shows "Tydgoate" and "The 4 Goats"
(NB spelling verified).
Another suggestion is a [drainage?] channel (cf. River Goyt in
Derbyshire/Cheshire which "Concise Oxford Dictionary of English
Placenames" attibutes to "Welsh 'gwyth' `channel, conduit`, identical
with Old Cornish 'guid' `a vein`, Middle Breton 'goeth' `a brook`.)
However, the Celtic presence in Derbyshire/Cheshire (NW of England)
is much more conspicuous than in East Anglia. Nevertheless, I have
seen allegations that some EA names are directly related to Celtic,
such as the rivers Ouse and Wissey both coming from the same root
as Gaelic "uisge", (c.f. the river Wiske in North Yorkshire[**] [which,
nonetheless, is associated by CODEPN with "Old English 'wisc' `damp
meadow`, while Ouse itself is traced back to 'ved-'/'ud-' `water`
realted to Sanskrit 'udan' which in turn relates to Gaeilc 'uisge'
etc.] "Wisbech" seems to combine "Wissey" (valley of) with "bech"
(Old English 'baece' `[valley of] stream` -- found everywhere
including the Continental Eurpoean side as in 'baek', 'bach' etc.).
But this whole aspect is so complicated that I can't pursue it here!
Once again, is there anything cognate in the placenames of the
Lowland countries?
If so, whence?
Greetings to all,
Ted.
[**] On which stands the etymologically fascinating village
of Danby Wiske.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972
Date: 22-Jul-01 Time: 13:46:02
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Ted,
You wrote above:
> 2. "Gote" (?var. Goyt? Goit?)
>
> Here I'm really groping. Near Wisbech is a cluster of settlements
> of which major ones are Tydd St Mary and Tydd St Giles (by no means
> big, though). Others (really tiny) are Tydd Gote and Four Gotes.
>
> My question is: "What's a Gote?"
This may be a long shot, but could this "Gote" (~ "Goat") be related to
Modern Low Saxon (Low German) _Good_ ~ _Good_ [goUt] ~ _Gaut_ [gaUt] and
German _Gut_ 'property', 'estate', '(grand) homestead (with land)' (neuter
gender)? This appears to be related to LS _goot_ ~ _good_ ~ _gaut_ and
German _gut_ 'good', thus the idea of 'goods' = 'belongings' = 'estate'.
However, then I'd expect a _-d_ in the regional English word (*_Gode_,
bearing in mind that /-d/ is underlying in LS, hence -> _gode_ as in _gode
Saken_ 'good things'), unless the dialects have final devoicing (as in some
Northern English and most or all Scots varieties, as well as Dutch, Low
Saxon and German).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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