LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 29.JUN.2001 (03) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 29 17:44:22 UTC 2001
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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUN.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (06) [D/E]
Dear Ron,
you write in your explanations of Missingsch inter alias
>I feel there is some
>justification in comparing Missingsch to the _Stedsk_ or _Stedfrysk_ ("Urban
>Frisian") contact varieties in the Netherlands that appear to be Dutch with
>strong Frisian substrates and influences.
Wouldn't it be also justified to compare it also to Scottish English (vs.
Scots) as you indirectly have done somewhere later in your essay anyhow?
So, without claiming that there is any identical relation, isn't there a row
of some parallels, viz:
German-Missingsch-Low Saxon
Dutch-Stedfrysk (Stadfries)-Fries
English-Scottish English-Scots
>>From this comparison lot of questions could be triggered.
Maybe you - or any other LL-er - would like to comment on the following two:
1. The name of the hybrid form is given by the dominating language: 'Scottish
English' is English, and 'Missingsch' is German, I thought. Also, I believe
(please tell me if I am wrong!), 'Stedfysk' is only a translation of the
Dutch 'Stadsfries'. My question: is there a genuine expression in the other
language? Is there a Low Saxon genuine expression for Missingsch? My question
is of course obsolete if my above opinion (that the current term stems from
the dominating language) is not correct.
2. You believe that Missingsch is moribund. Is also Scottish English and
Stedfrysk going to become extinct?
Mit herzlichen Grüßen
Georg
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Thanks for your interesting questions (above), Georg. I don't think I can
answer all of the competently, especially the one about the Scottish
situation, though you may well be on the correct general track with your
supposition. I do not, however, believe that Scottish English has the same
social status in Scotland that Missingsch has in North German cities.
Missingsch is perceived as a clear symbol of working-class culture, thus is
looked down upon by "more educated" people, including those who speak "proper"
German with North German "accents." At best, Missingsch is considered
amusing, the way Hamburg's (real or fictitious) _Originale_ like _Klein Erna_
[klã%In '?E:nQ] or _Zitronen-Jette_ [tsi'tro:njEde] talk, people who are
either "ignorant" or are so excentric that they do not care what snooty types
think about them. I do not believe that Scottish English has this type of
low-prestige status, certainly not within Scotland. Perhaps our Scottish
friends can enlighten us on this.
> 1. The name of the hybrid form is given by the dominating language: > 'Scottish
> English' is English, and 'Missingsch' is German, I thought. Also, I > believe
> (please tell me if I am wrong!), 'Stedfysk' is only a translation of the
> Dutch 'Stadsfries'.
No, _Missingsch_ is clearly a Low Saxon name. If it were German it would be
_Meißenisch_. (The Low Saxon denominal suffix of manner, cognate of German
_-isch_, Dutch _-s_ and English _ish_, is _-sch_ [S], farther west _-sk_ or
_-s_; e.g., _engelsch_ ~ _ingelsch_ 'English', _amerikaansch_ 'American',
_hollandsch_ 'Dutch', _ööst(er)rieksch_ 'Austrian', _poolsch_ 'Polish',
_däänsch_ 'Danish', _veniensch_ 'nasty (in behavior)', 'vicious' (< _Venien_
'poison'), _füünsch_ 'hostile', 'furious' (< _Fiend_ ~ _Füünd_ 'enemy',
'fiend'), _argdenkersch_ 'suspicious', 'distrustful' (< *_Argdenker_
'distrustful person' < _arg_ 'bad' + _denken_ 'to think'), _krüüsch_ 'choosy',
'picky (in food)' (< _küürsch_ < _Köör_ [k9%I3] ~ _Küür_ [ky:3] 'choice').)
I am leaving the questions about Scotland and Fryslân/Friesland for those to
answer who know more about it than I doLowlands-L wrote:
>
> ======================================================================
> L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUN.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
> Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
> Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
> Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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> A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
> LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
> =======================================================================
>
> From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Diminutives" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (01) [A/E]
>
> And we all remember what comes after "mannekin..." in
> Brussel!!!
> Stan
>
> ----------
>
> From: Andrys Onsman <A.Onsman at utas.edu.au>
> Subject: LL-L: "Diminutives" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (01) [A/E]
>
> To all respondents, particularly Tom McRae;
> Re: diminutives
>
> "This -ie diminitive was rather overused in Edinburgh. The ice cream van
> became 'The Icie' and I had an aunt who went so far as describe school
> lunches (dinners) as 'The Dinneries'. Noo thair's a wurd fur Ye, must've
> been a richt hubbleshoo. It has even spread to Oz where potato crisps are
> referred to as 'chippies'."
>
> I have noticed that over the last few decades the diminutive in
> Australian is changing to "er" ie bikie = biker; truckie = trucker
> (Mind you, that wouldn't work with chipper!). Probably the American
> influence, or PC, or both.
>
> And Tom, the diminutive "Giftie", I can't see it meaning "the little
> gift." What's going on there?
>
> "Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
> Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
> Robert Burns--
>
> Best
> Andrys Onsman
> --
> Dr Andrys Onsman
> Riawunna
> Centre for Aboriginal Education
> University of Tasmania
> Box 252-06
> GPO Hobart
> Tasmania 7001
> Australia
>
> Phone + 61.3.6226 2539
> Mobile 0438 667623
> Fax + 61.3.62262575
> E-mail A.Onsman at utas.edu.au
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Diminutive
>
> I wrote yesterday:
>
> > Note _lüttje_ 'small',
> > 'little' above. It is a rare case of a diminutive adjective (/lüt+je/).
> > Actually, I cannot think of any other examples right now. Can anyone > else?
>
> This morning, the Low Saxon (Low German) adverb _stillkens_ came to mind. It
> is obviously derived from the adjective/adverb _still_ 'still', 'quiet(ly)'.
> The most common meanings of _stillkens_ are 'very quietly' as well as
> 'surreptitiously', 'secretly', 'furtively', 'on the sly', thus basically 'so
> quietly that no one notices'. I am wondering if this is a case of adverbial
> diminution with _-ken_, plus the old adverbial _-s_ (/stil+ken+s/), which I
> believe to be at work in the Dutch examples Frank Verhoft gave us (bearing in
> mind that most Dutch varieties drop the /n/ in _-en_:
>
> > Antwerp: Ik ben _efkes_ weg.
> > SD: Ik ben _eventjes_ weg.
> > (E: I'm going away for _a little while_)
> >
> > Antwerp: Tot _strakskes_ .
> > SD: Tot _strakjes_ (?)
> > (E: See you _a bit later_)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
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Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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