LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 29.JUN.2001 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUN.2001 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Georg.Deutsch at esa.int
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 28.JUN.2001 (06) [D/E]

Dear Ron,

you write in your explanations of Missingsch inter alias

>I feel there is some
>justification in comparing Missingsch to the _Stedsk_ or _Stedfrysk_ ("Urban
>Frisian") contact varieties in the Netherlands that appear to be Dutch with
>strong Frisian substrates and influences.

Wouldn't it be also justified to compare it also to Scottish English (vs.
Scots) as you indirectly have done somewhere later in your essay anyhow?

So, without claiming that there is any identical relation, isn't there a row
of some parallels, viz:

German-Missingsch-Low Saxon
Dutch-Stedfrysk (Stadfries)-Fries
English-Scottish English-Scots

>>From this comparison lot of questions could be triggered.
Maybe you - or any other LL-er - would like to comment on the following two:

1. The name of the hybrid form is given by the dominating language: 'Scottish
English' is English, and 'Missingsch' is German, I thought. Also, I believe
(please tell me if I am wrong!), 'Stedfysk' is only a translation of the
Dutch 'Stadsfries'. My question: is there a genuine expression in the other
language? Is there a Low Saxon genuine expression for Missingsch? My question
is of course obsolete if my above opinion (that the current term stems from
the dominating language) is not correct.

2. You believe that Missingsch is moribund. Is also Scottish  English and
Stedfrysk going to become extinct?

Mit herzlichen Grüßen

Georg

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for your interesting questions (above), Georg.  I don't think I can
answer all of the competently, especially the one about the Scottish
situation, though you may well be on the correct general track with your
supposition.  I do not, however, believe that Scottish English has the same
social status in Scotland that Missingsch has in North German cities.
Missingsch is perceived as a clear symbol of working-class culture, thus is
looked down upon by "more educated" people, including those who speak "proper"
German with North German "accents."  At best, Missingsch is considered
amusing, the way Hamburg's (real or fictitious) _Originale_ like _Klein Erna_
[klã%In '?E:nQ] or _Zitronen-Jette_ [tsi'tro:njEde] talk, people who are
either "ignorant" or are so excentric that they do not care what snooty types
think about them.  I do not believe that Scottish English has this type of
low-prestige status, certainly not within Scotland.  Perhaps our Scottish
friends can enlighten us on this.

> 1. The name of the hybrid form is given by the dominating language: > 'Scottish
> English' is English, and 'Missingsch' is German, I thought. Also, I > believe
> (please tell me if I am wrong!), 'Stedfysk' is only a translation of the
> Dutch 'Stadsfries'.

No, _Missingsch_ is clearly a Low Saxon name.  If it were German it would be
_Meißenisch_.  (The Low Saxon denominal suffix of manner, cognate of German
_-isch_, Dutch _-s_ and English _ish_, is _-sch_ [S], farther west _-sk_ or
_-s_; e.g., _engelsch_ ~ _ingelsch_ 'English', _amerikaansch_ 'American',
_hollandsch_ 'Dutch', _ööst(er)rieksch_ 'Austrian', _poolsch_ 'Polish',
_däänsch_ 'Danish', _veniensch_ 'nasty (in behavior)', 'vicious' (< _Venien_
'poison'), _füünsch_ 'hostile', 'furious' (< _Fiend_ ~ _Füünd_ 'enemy',
'fiend'), _argdenkersch_ 'suspicious', 'distrustful' (< *_Argdenker_
'distrustful person' < _arg_ 'bad' + _denken_ 'to think'), _krüüsch_ 'choosy',
'picky (in food)' (< _küürsch_ < _Köör_ [k9%I3] ~ _Küür_ [ky:3] 'choice').)

I am leaving the questions about Scotland and Fryslân/Friesland for those to
answer who know more about it than I do.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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