LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.11 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.APR.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Henry Baron" <baro at calvin.edu>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.11 (02) [E]

What Pepijn observes about Brabant use of the possessive plural pronoun
when referring to family members applies also to westerlauwers Frisian.

Henry

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.04.11 (02) [E]

Pepijn wrote:

> In the dialect of Dutch Brabantish spoken in the area where I grew up
> (just west of Breda) it is used as well:
>
> My father could ask my mother: _Heeft jullie Pieter al gebeld?_ 'Has
> your brother Pieter phoned yet?'. A possible reply could then be: _Nee,
> ons Roos heeft gebeld._ 'My sister Roos phoned me instead'.
>
> Interestingly enough, this usage is restricted to one's own kin. In-laws
> don't join in the fun. So if my father asked: _Komt jullie Pieter nog?_
> 'Is your brother Pieter still coming?', my mother could say: _Nee, die
> komt niet, maar Janneke komt wel._ 'No, he's not coming, but [my sister-
> in-law] Janneke *is* coming'.

In Zeeland, we have a similar thing, but it's far less widely used than
in
Brabant. From a Zeelandic point of view, Brabant  is even famous for
using
_ons_ a lot.
As far as I know, in Zeeland it's only used for children from the same
family, the same street or the same village. So the Wullem in a sentence
like _ons/onze Wullem gae vandaege nae de voetbal_ ('our Wullem goes to
a
footballgame today'), could be either a local kid or the son of the
speaker.

regards,

Marco

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks for the responses so far.

Related to this is the topic of definite articles with proper names,
especially persons' names (but then usually also to names of months,
holidays, countries, companies, etc.).

In some languages, a person's name must be marked by a definite article,
albeit usually not in the vocative.  This applies for instance in
Portuguese (e.g., _O António visitou-me_ "The Anthony visited me") and
(Modern) Greek (e.g., _Íme o Pédros_ "I am the Peter," _Íne i Eléni_
"She is the Helen").

This is also a common feature in many Germany dialects, especially in
southern ones.  (There is a description of it:
http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/3/3-961.html) It certainly was not
entirely alien to me when I grew up in Northern Germany, but it seems to
me that it has increased in North German dialects and has also crept
into Low Saxon (Low German).  I am assuming here that it is a
non-standard southern feature that has been gradually increasing in the
north, though this is only a vague theory of mine, and I wonder if any
of you can confirm or deny it.

In Northern German and in Low Saxon it does not seem to be as pervasive
as in South German dialects.  When I was growing up, it tended to be
confined to subjects (e.g., _Der Peter is(t) aber wütend!_ 'Boy! Is
Peter furious!'), but nowadays I hear it more frequently in objects as
well (e.g., _Frag ma(l) den Peter_ 'Go ask Peter').  The Low Saxon
equivalents sound a bit odd to me (_Wat is (de) Peter füünsch!_, _Fraag
maal (den) Peter_), though I think some people would talk like that
these days.

Can you think of this feature in Lowlandic language varieties?  If it is
rare or absent elsewhere, perhaps this lends weight to my theory that in
Northern Germany it is due to South German influence.

And another grammar topic: topicalization.

Many Northern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects have the special
topicalization device _Wat {article} {noun} {to be}, ..._, functioning
much like Japanese _... wa_, though occurring less frequently.  It
elevates the subject noun into a prominent, destinguishing position, not
unlike English _As for ..., ..._.  Examples:

Wat mien Broder is, de mag keen Slackermaschü.
("What is my brother, he doesn't like whipped cream.")

Wat us Greet is, de hett al twee Lütte.
("What is our Maggie, she already has two little ones (= children).")

Wat dat Nedderdüütsche Instituut is, dat is in Bremen.
("What is the Low German Institute, it is in Bremen.")

I believe that in this particular type of construction a person's name
*must* be marked by a definite article (as explained above):

Wat de Hinnerk is, de sitt al lang achter sweedsche Gardienen.
("What is the Henry, he sits already long behind Swedish curtains.")
'As for Henry, he's been in jail for quite some time already.'

Are there similar devices in other Lowlands language varieties?

Thanks.

Reinhard/Ron

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