LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.29 (03) [E]

Mon Apr 29 19:41:48 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.APR.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.28 (04) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>
>Thus, though her supposed local accent might be a poor imitation, the
>lexical and idiomatic adaptation of the Daphne Moon character in
>"Frasier" (Elaine being in the "Seinfeld Show," I believe) seems
>perfectly convincing to me.

Just for the sake of clarification, is Daphne Moon's(or Jane Leeves')
accent
an authentic 'British' accent, or is it another attempt at immitation by
an
American actor.  I recall a few episodes of the show where she tries to
immitate an American accent, which I didn't think sounded quite
American.
Is this what you mean by 'her supposed local accent', or is the supposed
local accent the British one?

----------

From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.28 (04) [E]

Once again, as the differences between British English and American
English
usage and lexicon are pointed out, I (maybe somewhat naively)feel that
Canadian English, or at least 'Southern Ontario English', lies somewhere
in
between the two, or is a mixture of the two.  As you compare the two
below,
in about half the cases, the examples of British English are understood,
or
coincide with familiar usage, and the same is true of American usage for
the other half.  There are some cases, such as lift/ride (though not
lift/elevator), or tap/faucet where neither seems any more 'normal' than
the other.

In elementary school, the terms 'rubber' and 'eraser' could be used
interchangeably without any sexual connotations.  But at this time, even
the
Fox network didn't show condom commercials on tv (if I remember
correctly,
they were the first in USA to do thus), so perhaps the use of 'rubber'
as
slang for 'condom' was not so wide spread yet.  I'm sure that I still
hear
'rubber' used though, but not nearly as much.

----------

From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.28 (05) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Language varieties
>
>Her brother Simon, who, by the way, has shown up quite a few times in
>the meantime (but those episodes may not have appeared abroad yet), is
>my favorite character.  The actor really makes me laugh, representing a
>constantly soused, teetering, insensitive jerk (without glorifying or
>making excuses for alcoholism).  He is Anthony LaPaglia, an
>(Italian-)Australian from Adelaide.  How good is his "Cockney"?  At one
>point the writers poke fun at the traditional American perception of
>British "accents" -- *any* "accent -- as "sophisticated," as Roz
>(Frasier's assistant who is a bit rough around the edges, played by Peri
>Gilpin) whispers behind Simon's back something to the effect that he --
>speaking Cockney, one of the lowest-prestige dialects of Britain --
>sounds so darn attractive and sophisticated (which was before she got
>quite disgusted with him).

And for most people "any British 'accent'" includes Scottish, Irish, and
Welsh 'accents' (and Manx?  Do they have a distinct accent? are there
others
I should be including here?) accents, which, in my mind at least, are
different 'accent groups', British accents being restricted to accents
only
of England.  Despite the ambiguities of the term 'British accent', which
could, I suppose, mean any accent of English spoken anywhere in the
British
Isles, my point is that many people make no disctinction.  When I point
out
the disctinction the response is usually "whatever!", similar in
sentiment
to the "you should get out more" phrase below.

>Seriously though, American movies and television programs are not
>exactly known for great attempts at authentic representations.  That's
>something I would expect from British ones, where money is spent on
>actual research and planning, where I can pinpoint the exact decade by
>the clothes fashion alone, even centuries back.  If you'd criticize
>American producers regarding these lacking "finer" points, they'd
>probably suggest you "get out more" (which is another way of saying you
>are a geeky nerd who should get a life).

(What's wrong with being a geeky nerd?  One of my professors called me a
nerd once to the whole class.  Chief Nerd actually.  He just meant that
I
was good with computers though.  No insult intended.)

To American producers, if the average non-linguistically-informed Joe
American thinks it's authentic, it's authentic, or so it seems.  I guess
I
can't really speak for Americans, but in my experience, the average Joe
Canadian doesn't care much for such "finer" points either.  I think that
the
American producers realize the lack of finer points, but their goal is
not
authentic representations, but money, money, money, and they've been
quite
successful at achieving that goal without authentic representations.
Telling you to "get a life" would probably be their way of saying
"Everyone
else thinks I done good.  Now don't you go bursting my bubble by
pointing
out this lack of finer things." But this is a case for a different
court, so I'll stop writing about this now.

Lack of authentic representations of an accent or dialect in media seems
to
be a common complaint or criticism amongst speakers of 'non-power
languages'.  I've heard or read Appalachian speakers and Scots speakers
complain or criticise English movies and tv shows, Low Saxon speakers
for
(High) German media, as well as Occitan speakers for French media.

Randy Elzinga
frisiancow at hotmail.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Randy,

It was Ian Parsley who had written what you quoted (first, above).  I
had merely quoted him.

> And for most people "any British 'accent'" includes Scottish, Irish, and
> Welsh 'accents'

I mean pretty much *any* "accent" that is native or near-native English
from Europe, perhaps with the exception of Irish "accents," especially
on the East Coast, since there is a now fading history of anti-Irish
sentiments.  I'm not too sure about "heavy" Scottish "accents," though.
Many people don't even understand people who talk like that, also in
Australia.  In Australia I used to work with an older guy who clearly
had Scots as his first language and spoke English as a second language.
It took me a few weeks to get to understand him (and in hindsight I know
that my attempt helped me a lot later on).  Several people refused to
work with him because they felt they couldn't communicate with him
properly.  (The only people who had no problem with it were English.)
So, yes, perhaps you are right in saying that it is mainly "accents" of
England (and perhaps Wales and Cornwall).

> Lack of authentic representations of an accent or dialect in media seems > to
> be a common complaint or criticism amongst speakers of 'non-power
> languages'.  I've heard or read Appalachian speakers and Scots speakers
> complain or criticise English movies and tv shows, Low Saxon speakers for
> (High) German media, as well as Occitan speakers for French media.

In the American media no "accent" authenticity is seriously attempted,
but fantasy "accents" tend to be reinforced even where large, prominent
minorities are portraited, such as Spanish speakers (especially
Mexicans), Italian speakers and speakers of Yiddish or of
Yiddish-influenced English, leave alone generic "East Indian" (i.e.,
South Asian), "Asian" (i.e., East Asian) and "Middle Eastern" (i.e.,
generic "Moslem") ones, irrespective of the actual supposed native
language (Arabic, Turkish, Farsi?  Who cares?!  Chinese, Korean,
Japanese, Vietnamese?  Ain't it all pretty much the same anyway?)  It's
similar to the fake, exaggerated German, French and Italian accents in
British and Australian TV shows I remember from a couple of decades
ago.  To me all of this seems like a special genre: "linguistic
caricature."

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
> (What's wrong with being a geeky nerd?

I didn't say there was, though many people probably do think it's not
desirable to be a nerd (until they see the nerds laugh all the way to
the bank).  You're pretty safe on LL-L.  :)

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