LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.01 (06) [E/LS/German]

Thu Aug 1 23:49:11 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.AUG.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.01 (05) [E]

Dach ook, Gary, Leeg- un' Lowlanners,

Du schreevst:

>
> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Mike Wintzer wrote
>
> >Dear Lowlanders,
>
> >Who can inform me which status is attributed to
> >Berlinish by scholars?
>
> >Is it considered to be a lower-saxon tongue?
>
> The general consideration in Germany as to whether a
> dialect is Middle or Low German is the pronunciation
> of 'ik' or 'ich' (The former being the Low German
> pronunciation). As an Englishman living in Berlin I
> can definately say that the 'ik' pronunciation is
> alive and well. Other Low German features include
> 'appel' instead of 'apfel', 'boom' instead of 'baum',
> and 'een' instead of 'ein', 'det' istead of 'das' (or
> 'dat'). There are however many (East) Middle German
> features such as 'machen' instead of 'maken', 'fund'
> instead of 'pund'.
>
> If you ask a Berliner though if (s)he speaks
> Niederdeutsch they tend to deny this. (This could
> however be the same as an Englishman denying that they
> ever drop their 'h's, when in fact probably about 99%
> of the population do sometimes).
>
> The dialect surrounding Berlin is Middle Märkisch,
> which has more Low German features than Berlin. To its
> south is South Märkisch which is generally considered
> to be a half-way house between Middle and Low German.
> Features of Märkisch (shared with Berlinisch) include
> j- instead of g-, retention of 'n' before fricatives
> ('jans' instead of 'goos') and the above-mentioned
> 'det'.
>
> Hope this has answered some questions and not confused
> the matter further!
>
> Gary

LS:
Tjunge di, dat is jo woll ne wohr. De Berliner Snuuten schöllt nu' ook
noch
plattdüütsch waarn. Nee, nee- dat geiht mi denn doch meist tau wiet!
Obschoonst- Dien etymoloog'sch Verkloor'n hett Oort; 'n lütt beeten
Sassisch
schall door woll inne ween.

Inne Wirklichkeit süt't denn overs doch anners uut: schick 'n Berliner
to'n
Ferien mooken anne Elv or no Oostfreesland, un' hei schall woll
meistendeils
'n heel Bült Last hebben, wenn de Einheim'schen jemme Platt snackt or
proot'!
Nix föör ungaut: ick mein, in Berlin un' in Süd-Brannenbörg waard amend
heel
kein Platt snackt; obers, tau'n tweiten: watt door 'n Verwanschapp no't
Sassische is, schall ne bestreeden waarn.

E:
For heavens sake, it's hard to believe. Berlin Snouts to bring into the
family of Low-Saxon-speakers. No, Sir- I fear that's going too far!
On the other side- Your etymologic theories seem to be correct; of
course
there You find some Old-Saxon influences.

But- in reality it looks very much differently: send a man from Berlin
to
the coastal areas of Northern Germ., and he won't be able to understand
the
natives talking to each other in their dialects.

Never mind, please: I don't think that at  Berlin and Southern
Brandenburg
people talk anything which deserves the title of  Low-Saxon; but- again-
there is a small relationship to the Saxon family, of course!

"Berlinsch" (regard it as a joke, I can't speak Berlin's dialect at
all):
Da brat' mir doch eener 'n Storch. De Balina Schnauze soll plattdeutsch
wer'n! Dette jeeht ma zu weit, eh!

Det sieht doch janz anders aus: wenn icke, als een Balina, Fer'jen anne
See mach', vasteeh ick de Leut' ooch nich imma....(enough from this
stuff..)

Regards un Atschüß:

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Gary,

I have to agree with Fiete (above) that Berlin dialect(s) does not
really qualify as Lowlands Saxon (Low German), although it obviously is
strongly Saxon-based (and has a good dose of Slavic influence).  As far
as I know, Berliners themselves don't think of their dialect(s) as LS.

I supposed in cases of "mixed" languages (including many sorts of
Missingsch) the ik=ich division alone is not a reliable indicator.  In
most Berlin dialect variants people say _ick_ (or emphatic _icke_) for
'I' (cf. German _ich_, LS _ik_) but at the same time say _ooch_ (rather
than _ook_) for 'also' (cf. German _auch_, LS _ook_).  Likewise, they
say _det_ for 'the' (neut.), 'that' and 'it' (cf. German _das_, LS _dat_
~ _det_) but also say _jroß_ (rather than *_jroot_) for 'big' (cf.
German _groß_, LS _groot_).  Also, what in German is _t-_ also tends to
be _t-_ in Berlin, versus _d-_ in LS, such as _tot_ (vs. LS _doot_)
'dead' or _Tür_ [tya] (vs. LS _Döör_) 'door'.  Also, Berlin dialect has
/üü/ where German has /üü/ and LS has /öü/~/oi/ or /öö/, for instance
_über_ ['?yba] (vs LS _över_) 'over'.  Then again, they say _een jroßet
Hau(e)s_ (cf. German _ein großes Haus_, LS _een groot(et) Huus_).  So,
as you can see, it's a very mixed bag.  The average Berliner would
probably be able to understand more Lowlands Saxon than the average
Germans from farther south can.  However, I would not expect them to
understand it terribly well, because their language is at least on the
surface German, and much of their inherited LS lexicon is area-specific,
oftentimes originally Slavic.

Nun jrüß ick Dia eastma(l) füa heute.
(G.: Nun grüße ich Dich erstmal für heute.)
(LS: Nu grööt ik Di eerstmaal för hüüt/vundaag')
Reinhard/Ron

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