LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E]

Dear All,

  I can generally subscribe to what Ron has said about double negative
(DN henceforth). It seems the Western Germanic dialects show the double
negative to be the norm, rather than a
"low-status-corruption-something-or-other".

  I believe the "incrimination" of the DN to go back to renaissance
grammarians and their successors, all educated in Latin. It was much
taught as a "logical" (even described as such in my school days), almost
"mathematical" language. It was held in high esteem and deemed to be
superior to the vernaculars.

  If you base your grammatical ideal on a different language from the
one you are describing, interference of this kind can happen. But DN is
no more illogical that adjective inflections agreeing with noun
inflections, or personal pronouns agreeing with personal verb forms.
It`s a case of "doppelt gemoppelt hält besser".

  Additionally DN can take over intensifying functions as pointed out by
yourself, Ron.

  Unfortunately I have erased the posting in which was stated that
language can not really be influenced by a form of authority, be it
academic or through Government. History has proved this to be wrong.
Language can be very much influenced by an elite that will adhere to
certain trends, that have been decided upon by those who consider
themselves to be "superior" or somehow "grammatically enlightened". Your
(whoever`s, sorry, don`t know) very own example from the Norman conquest
shows the far reaching linguistic effect the use of Anglo-Norman by the
elite had. Your right in that a language shift did not occur, neither
was the structure of the language radically changed (change may have
been excellerated a bit), but the effect it had on the vocabulary was
profound.

  I also believe that if an elite, Latin educated, imposes its power and
sense of being right on an educational programme, language can be
changed. DN is just one of these enforced changes. Just look at the way
dialect speech in general is being abandoned in many areas of Europe and
the world. It goes back to the traditional view that dialect is an
inferior way of speaking.

 If a sense of inadequacy is evoked in the people whose speech the
"enlightened grammarian" wishes to correct, and an alternative is
offered, this feeling of inadequacy is a powerful motor to spark change,
whether in dialect speech in general or certain dialectal features.

  Oh, here`s one for Gabriele, I heard my cousin say the other day when
I was trying to get something political out of him. He said:
"Politics is like swapping deck-chairs on the Titanic".

Dan

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