LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
               V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ole Stig Andersen <osa at olestig.dk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E]

CORRECTION

I mistakenly attributed the quote

> 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the
> existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no
> question of it.

to Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleemin.fsnet.co.uk>

The real author was Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>

My apologies to you both and y'all.

Ole Stig

MY MSG SHOULD HAVE READ:

> From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com >

> 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the
> existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no
> question of it.

This is absolutely correct, but not quite to the point, I think.
It should have been double bad:

> 200 years ago many a NORWEGIAN person would have begged to differ at the
> existence of a separate Norwegian language. (Nowadays there are several.)

Right on!

Ole Stig Andersen
http://www.olestig.dk/english

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From: rossmay <rossmay at bellsouth.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E]

Ron asked when the Gaelic tongue was banned or outlawed.  Between 1695 and
about 1725, after the Jacobite uprising was put down by the English
Government and the Clans loyal to England, it was outlawed and all schools
that were erected thereafter sought to erase the tongue, and succeeded in
most parts of Scotland except the highlands controlled by the MacDonalds,
who were at times almost a country unto themselves.  This could be why it is
spoken in those same areas today.   During much of that time George I was
probably the English monarch.  And I suppose that the language was outlawed
because of the Jacobites, whom England and the Whig government did not want
to see active again.    Harlan Ross May

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at fleemin.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: "Frisians"

Lowlanders,

Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English
language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to
have gone unrecorded?

I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm
mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain
mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only
other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members
of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts
(or something - like I said, this is not my subject).

Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? Bede was
the first person to translate the Bible into a form of English. Is it
possible that Bede's translation was strongly influenced by Frisian
and that subsequent English writings were strongly influenced by
Bede's translation?

(Actually, a certain member of the family is looking over my shoulder
and strongly objecting to some of the assertions I'm making here,
but anyway, though this isn't something I know much about, I thought
it might be worthwhile to put the subject up for discussion amongst
the more knowledgeable!)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E]

Ross May wrote:

> As I stated before, my ancestors (paternal and
> maternal) originated in different parts of Scotland and Ireland (Ulster).
> So, I have reason to be proud of the Scottish people.

Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few
occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole,
this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes.
Even if they happen to be related to me, I don't see how that would make me
feel like I'm a better person by proxy. Everybody is responsible for their
own actions, and if perhaps I had a great-grandfather who was considered a
hero, that would be something for him to be proud of, not me. As a
biologist, I fail to see how glory could be passed on genetically.

Somebody (I think it was Sandy) raised the point that Scots is often
confused with Scottish English. I think this is a very important
distinction. Germany, for example, is a country which features many local
language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're exposed
to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's how
they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German,
tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions. I have
lived in six different Bundesländer so far, from Lower Saxony to Bavaria,
and I always found that the way the locals talked to me - which seemed to be
a heavy dialect to the unsuspecting ear - was very different from the way
they talked among themselves (which I could only listen to and understand
with utmost concentration). I was also heavily surprised more than once
when, during my college years, I would accompany a close friend home for a
weekend with his or her parents, and suddenly find that they were virtually
bilingual and that the "strong dialect" I had heard from them so far had
actually been their best effort at "Oxford German". ;-)

>From this experience, I suspect that, even in Britain, many people are not
aware that the Scots language goes way beyond the "Scottish" voices they
hear on TV.

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

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From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at btinternet.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E]

At 04:24 29/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote:

>            I was highly gratified that my comments opened such a
>preponderance of opinion.  I was soundly thrashed in a very gentle manner.
>But, most of the replies had political overtones because I stirred a
>long-smoldering fire in making this unconditional statement, that Scots is
a
>dialect of English.  It certainly does not have its roots in the Celtic
>tongues even though some of the syntactic structure might have been
affected
>by a Brit or Scot's original Celtic usage.

It's common knowledge that Scots does not have its roots in the Celtic
tongues. However, to argue that Scots is therefore "a dialect of English"
is not only an inconclusive argument, but a complete non-sequitur.

The earlier postings on this subject were intended for Harlan Ross May's
enlightenment on that point, rather than as a "thrashing", and I suggest
respectfully that he read them again. They may indeed have had political
overtones, but so has his suggestion of Scots being "a dialect of English".

Colin Wilson.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Gabriele, you wrote (above):

> Germany, for example, is a country which features many local
> language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're
exposed
> to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's
how
> they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German,
> tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions.

I don't understand why you needed to apologize to me, since what you said
applies, quite factually, to "people" (which I understand as implying "in
general," and which may or may not include you but apparently is meant to
exclude me).

I assume you implicitly included what some of us refer to as "Low(lands)
Saxon."  It is quite correct to say that probably the vast majority of
Germans, including North Germans, still think of "Low German" as a German
dialect group, most people of the Netherlands think of the Lowlands Saxon
(_Nedersaksisch_) as dialects of Dutch, and certainly most Germans have
never heard of the European Language Charter and its consequences, or buried
reports went by them with all the other "irrelevant gobbledigook" in the
media.

The fact that LS and German descended from two quite different Germanic
languages (Old Saxon and Old ("High") German respectively) is not exactly
common knowledge in Germany (and has been traditionally glossed over in
academic circles), and assumedly this is not an accident.

As I said, EU recognition is not the magic bullet.  It's still business as
usual: schools are not changing their curricula accordingly, the popular
media (which are the sole source of information for about 99% of the
population) rarely mention "Platt" and then mostly as a "funny little
dialect," and officialdom does it's part to ward off any "fallout" of the
European Language Charter ratification promise.  Most certainly, I cannot
see even the slightest sign of any wholehearted effort to inform the public,
and I suspect that the silent motto is "the less said the better."  The
ideal "one country, one ethnicity, one language" is old in Europe, and the
perception that diversity that is more than skin-deep (i.e., goes beyond
dialects) equals disunity or threatens national coherence still
predominates.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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