LL-L "Orthography" 2002.01.31 (03) [S]

Thu Jan 31 19:52:10 UTC 2002

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 31.JAN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Orthography"

> From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at altavista.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.01.28 (04) [S]
>
> Ay. The trauchle wi aa thon kynd o studies - the LAS is the same

I'd forgot aboot thon tables in LAS3! I'll hae tae hae a
leuk an see if this wadna be juist the thing for database
analysis.

> he gies baith a meenimun an a maximum inventory (8 or 12 vowels), tho for

This maximum's interestin for the fack that vowel systems
o mair than nine vowels (coontin the schwa but no coontin
diphthongs nor separate allophones, nor differs purely adae
wi length) is considered rare - tho RP English haes ten, I
believe.

Is it possible that Scots haes taen on a vowel or twa ower
mony an this explains some o the langage chainge the past
twathree centuries, wi the front roondit vowels bein tint
at least twa gates ("Doric" an "Glesca" :), an this mergin
ye've been on aboot?

> at, for a pronunciation guide, ye wadna need /e+/ an /e-/, but I
> think ye wad
> still need /O/, cause o the wey at pronunciations like 'stoap' an 'shoap'
> soonds
> 'Glesca' ti oniebodie frae the North. (Fowk frae hereaboots

This is a lot adae wi what ruch the pronoonciation guide
on ScotsteXt is - it gies three separate guides and it's
still juist ruch!

> Sae coud it be at, in your dialect, the vowel I'v caa'd /O/ is
> aye short, but the
> /o/ ane merges wi it whiles, whan an whaur bein steered bi the SVLR?

Juist what I wis thinkin.

> Anither complication I didna mention is at some dialects pits
> thegither /O/ an
> /A/ whiles. Maist aa SSE speakers dis this. Sae my wife an bairns says
> somethin
> like [kQ;?] (dinna ken gin [;] is richt SAMPA for hauf-lang) for baith
> _caught_
> an _cot_, whaurbyes I say [kQt] (or mibbie [kOt]) an [kQ:t]. The vowel
> poseetion
> is aiblins juist a bittie different, but the main differ is the lenth.
>
> This laeds ti some fankles in Scots spellin, for example,
> _dochter/dauchter_.

Weel, I wad say [ko?] for baith "caught" an "cot" (an whiles
"coat"), but [dQ:xt at r]. Tho A'm gittin kin o lost here anent
what aa that means!

> I hae a disteenction in Shetlandic:
>
> 2. trauchle, lauch, faut, etc. [a:]
> 3. tocht, brocht, dochter, etc. [ou(C)]

I div think I micht gie some saerious thocht tae gaun throu
LAS3 yet - it wad be like tae bring oot aa this kin o thing.
Dinna ken hou I could mak the time for sicna darg the nou, tho.

> (The lenth in e.g. _lauch_ micht be non-phonemic lenthenin afore vyceless
> fricatives, charactereestic in Shetlandic, causin merger wi /a:/, as in
> _faut_, afore [x].)
>
> Sae _dochter_ groups wi _brocht_, _bocht_, etc. But in the LAS,
> for Tranent, I
> see _dochter_ groups wi e.g. _lauch_ wi a unroondit [A] vowel, whaurbyes
> _bocht_,
> _wrocht_ etc. haes a roondit [Q] vowel; an sae it wad naiturally be spelt
> <dauchter>.

Ternent is a awfu typical Lothian dialeck - different in some
weys fae my ain even tho I gaed tae the High Schuil thair.
Houanever, I've aye thocht on Ternent fowk as _aye_ uisin the
roondit form for ony kin o lang <a>/<au> spellin. I'll hae tae
hae a leuk at the LAS an see if that's no juist my ain bigoted
perception o Ternent fowk!

> Catford's study is a airticle caa'd 'Vowel Systems of Scots Dialects' in a
> journal caa'd 'Transactions of the Philological Society' 1957.
> Yer only hope
> is
> ti finnd this in a University library an photocopy it. The same
> thing gaes for
> Johnston's study: Paul Johnston, _Regional Variation_ in
> 'Edinburgh History of
> the Scots Language.' (I'll see ye aboot sendin ye some mair wittins aboot
> this.)

Thanks! I'll hae tae see what Edinburgh an St Andreas
haes the next time I'm up.

> >> This is juist me thinkin wi my fingers (better nor my heid, I daursay!)
> >> an gettin cairit awa as uisual. But I dout I maun be awed
> >> tippence-ha'penny bi nou!
> >
> >What's that in euros?
>
> I dout ye wad need ti raise it bi a negative pouer!

How no juist lower it bi a positive pouer? Or raise it
bi a positive pouer, like at British Home Stores?

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================