LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.07.02 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.JUL.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Swadesh

Beste leeglanners,

I think we should only look for "cognates" regarding the Swadesh
list...the meaning of words is too futile and fickle (fuzzy and
"not-measurable")imho.

Even before the splitting of languages, meanings of certain words might
have differed (slightly or significantly) between 2 social strata, so I
would never take the meaning into account personally.

Whether it should be called "splitting", "branching off" or something
else I can't decide (parallel with evolution theory ? *s*), but living
in another "environment" can certainly influence a language I think...

Being in Singapore now, and constantly hearing "Singlish" (mixture of
Chinese, English and Malaysian roughly speaking), I think this is a good
example of a shifting vocabulary...but also in Brussels (Belgium) people
often speak in very "strange" patois *s*...Like : sentences of 8 words
for example that are syntactically Brabantish but that contain 5 French
terms. Depending on the background of the speaker it can also work the
other way round. Both are city-dialects, maybe this is not possible in a
more stable countryside-setting where extern influences are often less
hectic.

Maybe these are rather cases of convergence than divergence, but I
wouldn't put too much weight on these terms really because in the
Swadesh formula I have the
impression that convergence is ruled out a priori, precisely because of
the nature of the chosen words. Basic terms usually exist in every
language so there is little need for swapping these...If languages can
"fuse" (Caribbean ones being another example...are they considered as
city-dialects ?), they must also be able to split, I guess.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

PS : I do honestly apologise for not having been able yet to send the
Brabantish version of the Swadesh list...due one of these days...

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Luc.

> I think we should only look for "cognates" regarding the Swadesh
> list...the meaning of words is too futile and fickle (fuzzy and
> "not-measurable")imho.

So, are you saying that in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) we ought to have
written _Persoon_ rather than _Minsch_, _minsk_, etc. (as Rudi did for
Afrikaans and Dutch, i.e. _persoon_ rather than _mens_), and Sandy
should have given _person_ rather than _body_ for Scots, even though
_Persoon_, _person_, etc., is a relatively recent Romance loan?  Are we
supposed to have done so just because we started off with English which
happens to have lost the cognate of _minsch_, _mens_, _minske_, etc.
(Old English _mennisc_) and came to substitute for it by means of _man_,
_human being_ and _person_?  It seems to me that it is English who is
the odd one out here (having diverged from the rest), and that using
English as our guide skews the entire operation.  Or am I still missing
something here?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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