LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.07.01 (04) [E]

Tue Jul 2 04:12:07 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 01.JUL.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.07.01 (02) [E]

Luc wrote:

> I should have mentioned  my Flemish, and nevertheless i think that the
> variations of Zeeuws-Flemish (in Zeeuws-Vlaanderen)West-  and
> East-Flemish
> and French-Flemish can certainly be covered by the word Flemish.

I still think that the linguistic differences between
Zeelandic (including some dialects of Zeeuws-
Vlaanderen) and West-Flemish (including French
Flanders and some dialects of Zeeuws-Vlaanderen)
on the one hand and East-Flemish (including a few
dialects of Zeeuws-Vlaanderen - talking of a border
region!) on the other are too big to just label them
as one language variety, "Flemish".
And I'm not alone on that subject. Most, if not all
linguists who wrote about the subject note the
homogenity of the Zeelandic/West-Flemish dialect
group on the one hand and the sharp linguistic
border of these dialects with East-Flemish and
Brabantish on the other hand. Look at any linguistic
map of Flanders and the Nethterlands and you'll see
a very distinct line between the Friso-Franconian
dialects of Zeeland, West-Flanders and French-
Flanders and the Franconian dialects of East-Flanders
and Brabant (roughly the provinces of Noord-Bra-
bant, Antwerpen and Vlaams-Brabant/Brussel).

I think that we shouldn't mix up linguistics with
history or regional sentiments here; the linguistic
heritage of the former county of Flanders is simply
too diverse to be presented as a whole.
It would be nice if someone from East-Flanders
could say something about the way things are
'felt' there linguistically.

> I think i sometimes answer too quickly. There is for me a great need for
> an
> "official" spelling. With every word i ask myself how it can be spelled
> without having to break the reading itself. I am willing enough to try
> your
> version but i like to have a look first. Can i find that somewhere on
> the
> net?

You'll find the more or less generally excepted
(when spelling is concerned, general exceptation
is almost impossible) spelling of Zeeuws on
www.zeeuws.cjb.net. This spelling is also in use
for writing in West-Flemish, although almost
every writer in West-Flanders makes up his or
her own spelling. I think that's because the
interest in the regional language is relatively new
compared to the long tradition we have in Zeeland.

> The problem is that i don't know a symbol for the sound.
> Buik (D) sounds in my lang. something between 'b@:k' and 'bu:k'

In Zeeuws-Vlaanderen, they have exactly the same
sound. There, everyone uses _uu_ in stead of for
example _u_ or _u:_ because it is easier to read. The
fact that it sounds a bit different then _uu_ in Dutch
doesn't matter; spelling is always just an agreement
between users.

> > "Skien, oude maone, skien!" skreêuwde Kadulletje,
> Skien doesn't feel allright , skIn would do better.

In Zeeland, some people use _ii_ where the
'standard' spelling prescribes _ie_. So could this be
the 'final' version in southwestern West-Flemish?

"Skiin, oude maone, skiin!" skreêuwde Kadulletje,
mao de maone wos nievers te ziene, en de sterren
oôk nie; ze waorn oltegaore naor bedde gegaon

Ron wrote:

> Thanks for the list, Luc.  I have entered it as an alternative to
> Marco's, because I did not want to just override Marco's input.
>
> http://sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

My suggestion is to keep my version for Zeelandic
and Luc's version for West-Flemish and to delete
my version for West-Flemish and Luc's version
for 'Flemish'. This 'Flemish' version is in fact the
same list as his West-Flemish version, just with
another label. When we keep his list under the name
West-Flemish, we keep our options open if someone
should find the time to make an East-Flemish version.
And also, apart from the above discussion about the
names for Flemish, East-Flemish and West-Flemish,
West-Flemish simply gives a better indication where to
situate the origin of the list. How about that?

Maybe Luc could look at his West-Flemish list again
sometime, bearing in mind the remarks about the
purpose of the list and Ron's questions about cognates
vs semantic equivalents? I'll send an improved version
of the Zeelandic list when I think there is a need for that
if any more remarks about the way this list should be
treated are posted.

Groetenisse,

Marco

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Marco!

I'll leave the columns alone for a few days to see if there is any
feedback to your suggestion.  I see your point(s), though, and will
eventually make changes to everyone's satisfaction.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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