LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (09) [D/E]

Tue Jun 11 04:39:19 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

08:29 10-6-2002 -0700, "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: etymnology

>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen,
>and also the past participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs
> [...]
>each verb with its past forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen

Not quite. It's vragen, vroegen, gevraagd.

>SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen

Correct. Interestingly, we also have the verb "slagen" (= pass an
exam; succeed; manage to buy needed clothes that fit etc.), which goes:

SLAGEN, slaagde, geslaagd.

"Slaan" and "slagen" are sometimes confused in some of the language
areas, I think they are Groningen in the north, and Belgium in the
south.

>Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive
seems
>to be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was
>written as slagen?

See above. The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal) says:
===
SLAGEN, bedr., en onz. zw. ww. Hd. schlagen. Gevormd van geslagen,
verl. deelw. van Slaan.
I) Als gewestelijke vorm naast slaan in de of althans in vele
toepassingen van dit woord. In zuidelijke dialecten en in Groningen
en Drenthe. Zie enkele voorbeelden bij SLAAN.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 21 May 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
>Holger:
>
>> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stÃ³n" (to stand) or "gÃ³n" >
(to
>> go) with an infinitive:
>> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
>> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
>> over I can't find any example.
>
>This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
>I had described earlier.  Do you think so?
>
>> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
>> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
>> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
>> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
>> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
>> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
>> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
>> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
>> ...
>>
>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>> (Wat daaist dí±ªí°¨ier taau zitn?)
>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>>
>> Wat sall dat Tí²²í³¨s noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun?
>> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
>> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
>> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>>
>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?
>
>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?
>
>*Wat sal dä© budel noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hello Ron !

Here I am again a second time on the same feature. As I wrote last time
I
had a notion of having heard something similar to "wat s(gh)al dat dor
liegen daun ?" (why shall that continue to lie there ?) in Eastern
Friesland LS long time ago but considering the fact I cannot decide on
whether it is a real but forgotten experience or just a feeling based on
a
sub-conscious knowledge of general LS language structures that make such
a
construct seem possible.
The longer I think about it the more possible sentences like the above
mentioned example become.
Possibly You are right assuming a decrease in using "daun"-(to do)-
structures in LS has resulted from German influence. In former times
they
might have been much more widespread. If this is true for Eastern
Friesland
this process must have been very successful and it must have been farly
completed more than 40 years ago.

Kind regards
Holger

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