LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.10 (10) [E]

Tue Jun 11 04:41:13 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.10 (07) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant wrote:

> Don't forget the Flemish regions (Flemish is not a part of Zeelandic,
> they
> together are just quiet similar regardig that  Zeeland is a very tiny
> region
> compared with Flanders. Scientifically speaking I would  appoint
> Zeelandic
> as the most nordic form of Flemish.

And Ron:

> I would be all too happy to include Flemish everywhere and everytime.
> The problem is that I cannot do so alone.  I must rely on the good
> services of others, as I did when other lists were compiled and when our
> webpages were created.  Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to volunteer
> Zeelandic translations, and I was eager to snap it up.  What I am
> driving at here is that I would gladly add a Flemish version of our
> homepage (and one of the Rules and Guidelines page) if you and/or other
> Flemings on the list would do the translating bit.  All you need to do
> is send me the translated text, and I will post it.  Yes, folks, it
> would be fine to have it in more than one Flemish (and/or Brabantish)
> variety (as we do in the cases of Limburgish, Low Saxon, Frisian and
> Scots).

I don't believe it was ever suggested that
Flemish, or rather Western Flemish, is part
of Zeelandic. Zeelandic and Western Flemish
are two closely related regional languages, and
would there not have been any of the artificial
political boundaries as there are today, I think
the differences between Zeelandic and Western-
Flemish would even be smaller than they are
now.
The reason these two are often mentioned as a
whole, is merely because the differences are so
little. There are far more linguistic differences
within the Low Saxon area, although Low Saxon
is considered to be one language. But there you
have it again: as always, it is all just a question
of definition.

Anyway, I really would welcome versions of the
homepage in Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish,
Brabantish dialects, etcetera.
But I do have a problem with the random usage
of the word 'Flemish' in this respect. Flemish can
mean the Standard Dutch with some regional
influence as it is officially spoken in Belgium (and
as it can be heard in most Belgian tv-broadcasts).
Flemish can mean the whole of germanic dialects
spoken in Belgium (with exception of the few
German en Letzebuergish dialects in the east).
Flemish can be used with reference to the former
county of Flanders, so the present-day provinces
of East- and West-Flanders.
Flemish is also used as a name for the germanic
dialects of the northernmost part of France, while
the dialects spoken there are in fact dialects of
Western Flemish. To complicate things: with
respect to grammar and vocabulary, these French
Flemish dialects have more in common with
Zeelandic than with the Western Flemish of
a city like Bruges... Etcetera.

Please note that Eastern Flemish is very different
from Western Flemish (Friso-Franconian) and is
mostly categorized by linguists as Brabantish
(Franconian). A nice map where this is clearly
illustrated, can be found on
http://httpd.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/krant/kaart_nederlandgroot.htm

I would suggest to use the correct terms for these
regional languages, so Zeeuws (Zeelandic), Brabants
(Brabantish), West-Vlaams (Western Flemish) and
treat Estern Flemish as a sort of subcategory of
Brabantish (just like Eastern Frisian or Twents are
treated as varieties of Low Saxon).

Then Luc Vanbrabant gave the 'Flemish' (so actually
the Western Flemish) name for the Lowlands:
_liig lan'_. This spelling points out another
interesting issue: Western Flemish hasn't yet got
a standard spelling or even some more or less
generally accepted basic principles for spelling
the language. For example, Luc's _liig lan'_ is
also spelled by others as:
_leege landen_
_lieege landen_
_ljeehe landn_
_lêhe lann_
_liehe laann_
etcetera.

In Zeêuws, where both _laeg_ and _leêg_ are used
for _low_ (but _leêg is getting a bit old-fashioned)
this would be spelled as _lêge landen_, which sounds
exactly the same as Luc's Western Flemish. A standard
spelling for all Zeelandic dialects, that can also be used
for Western Flemish dialects (although I actually hope
that Western Flemish eventually gets its own,
'customized' spelling), can be found at
www.zeeuws.cjb.net (click on 'schriefwiezer').

So if there is someone out there who is willing to write
texts for the homepage in Western Flemish, which I
hope there is, I would strongly advise to make sure
that the spelling that is used is at least consistent and
not just as 'illegible' to outstanders as possible. The
latter is very often the case with texts from regions
where people are just starting to find out that their
own language can actually be written.
I think Western Flanders (and that goes for Zeeland
as well) is lucky that they have a few good examples of
consistent, legible and well-founded spellings. Guido
Gezelle did some good, but very Dutch orientated work
and the works of Edmond de Coussemaeker, a 19th
century priest from French Flanders, on spelling are
excellent.
More recently, I found the spelling of the Western Flemish
dialect of Oostende on www.oostends.be quite good and
easy to read, although a bit inconsistent here and there.
To conclude I give you a few lines from a children's song
about a horse (_peerd_, _peird_, _paerd_, _rosse_, _orse_)
that De Coussemaker picked up in Kapellebroek
(Capellebrouck to the French):

Juteko te peeretje
te Cassel om e steeretje
t'Yper om azyn
is er t'Yper geene
gaot van dao nao Meenen
Is t't te Meenen goe koop
Brynckt er mee vuuf, zes stoop
Peeretje wil je wat zeere goan loopen
'k Za je e bakje vul haver koopen
't Peeretje liep den dryf den draf
En 't en hadde moar e bakje vul kaf.

Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go with
Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish or Brabantish
translations!

Regards,

Marco

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