LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.18 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 18.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.17 (04) [E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> Hi Patricia, hi all
>
> Patricia:
> <<<I also wondered if there was still any current
> dialect closer to Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?
>
> Just my humble opinion, worth +/- 2 eurocent:
> I think it's just impossible to quantify that for
> several reasons:
> 1. I sometimes have the impression that in the history
> of Dutch (or any language) the nowadays so called
> Standard Dutch (or standard variant) is considered to
> be the only result of that evolution that needs or
> that is worth to be accounted for. I have probs with
> that idea.
>
> 2. "Middle Dutch" as a (one) language doesn't exist:
> it's a cover term for several variants, ranging from
> (let's call it) West Flemish over Brabantian, Hollands
> to Limburgian.
> I wonder how it would be possible to compare the
> various Middle Dutch'es with the Modern Standard
> Variant and with the various dialects of these days. I
> mean, there is a danger of making "cross
> references"... AAAAARGH... This is not very clear, i'm
> sorry.
> I mean, there is no fixed point of reference what
> Middle Dutch is concerned, no Middle Dutch ANS, no
> Middle Dutch "Groene Boekje" and no Middle Dutch Van
> Daele :).

Dear Frank (what's in a name!)
There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's a big one in a
number of
volumes).
What we need is aan early Dutch (early Flemish) dictionnary.You may call
it
also a Franconian dictionnary
Why do people always want to put a language in specified little boxes,
one
for Flemish, one for Dutch, one for....All must have a name.
Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'? Scientists say it is
in
Middle High German, but for me it could also be a Flemish variant
because I
can still read it (without having had any instructions around that
subject)!
>
> 3. Obviously all dialects evolved, but in quit different ways.
dialects??
 Languages you mean! Flemish was the cultural language, and a big part
of
the early Dutch arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standardlanguage afterwards.
 But modern West-Flemish retained
> features of the WF Middle Dutch variant (no
> dipthongization of certain long vowels in certain
> conditions), but changed other features. While Modern
> Brabantian dialects (in Flanders) still use the Middle
> Dutch "gij". Other aspects evolved in another way.
> Every variant retains and changes different
> aspect/features of a previous stage...
In West Flanders we also still use 'gij' (and 'ge' and 'gie' and 'je'
and
'you' and 'dje'(from du?))
> I mean, how would it be possible to decide which
> dialect/variant is closer to *the* Middle Dutch (which
> doesn't exist in the first place) than any other
> dialect/variant?
Could it not be the variant that can still read the originnal text
without
using a dictionnary, which in West-Flanders is quiet possible!I am
alwaeys
happy to be able to read f.i. Van Maerlant without help from any book
(but
for the words who are not used anymore, be they not that frequent).

groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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