LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]

Wed Jun 19 16:33:19 UTC 2002

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (05) [E]

I wrote:

> > I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
> > Western Flemish is even to be found in your
> > own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
> > western part of the Nord-departement) the
> > older people still speak a dialect of Western-
> > Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
> > the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
> > speaking community since the 17th century.

And then Luc Vanbrabant:

> But is also perfectly understandable for us  Flemings  on both sides of
> the
> 'schreve'(= borderline) I love to listen to the free radio Uilenspieghel
> in Cassel in France.

I'd like to add that speakers of all dialects of, let's say,
the southwestern dialectgroup (called Zeeuws/Zeelandic
in the Netherlands, West-Vlaams/West-Flemish in Bel-
gium and Vlamsch/Flemish in France) can perfectly under-
stand all other dialects. For me, as a speaker of the dialect
of Walcheren (Zeeland, Netherlands) it is no problem
whatsoever to communicate with people from Bruges,
Ostend, Kortrijk or French Flanders in my own dialect.
In fact, as soon as someone from another part of the
Zeeuws/West-Vlaams language continuum picks up
a 'familiar' sound, they always switch from Standard
Dutch or French to the regional language.

I think that SIL's Ethnologue has done a nice job in
describing all these regional languages as part of a whole.
It really goes too far for me to name this whole 'Vlaams'
as SIL does, because 'Vlaams' could never be an accurate
name for it since 'Vlaams' is nowadays mostly used for
the Standard Dutch as spoken in Belgium and not for the
original Friso-Franconian dialects in the southewest of
Holland and the west of Belgium.
That is however a relatively small mistake of SIL compared
with the fact that they name Achterhoeks, Drents, Gronings,
Sallands, Stellingwerfs and Twents as separate languages (!)
in stead of naming them as dialects or dialectgroups of Low
Saxon. SIL even summs up Veenkoloniaals and Wester-
wolds as separate language, whil in fact they are Low Saxon
dialects of the dialectgroup of Gronings... And then Lim-
burgish, officially recognized by the Dutch government, isn't
even named in SIL's ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com).

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Luc, dear all

As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
don't understand very well what you mean by the words
"Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.

<<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's

a big one in a number of volumes).<<<

I meant a contemporary one :).

<<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
dictionnary<<<

Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
"Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
geïllustreerd met één of meer citaten uit de
Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
werden."

What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
and how do you distinguish between them, on which
linguistic and or historical grounds?
Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
you see the relation between Franconian and what you
call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?

<<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
read it (without having had any instructions around
that subject)!<<<

"Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
(Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
but these criteria (the most important one being the
second or High German sound shift) of course have
nothing to do with you understanding the text.
You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
him/her of a German variant.

<<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standard language afterwards.<<<

No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
(re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
"language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
just meant something as "language variant" without any
social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
please explain a bit further.

<<<In West Flanders we...<<<

Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))

Beste Luc, ik hoop dat je tijd vindt om een beetje
dieper op m'n vragen in te gaan. Ik kijk er alvast
naar uit!

Van harte,

Frank

=====
"De perto ninguém é normal!" - Caetano Veloso

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================