LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (01) [E]

Ron:

> Marco responding to Luc's Flemish data:
>
> > Some of your translations look very interesting:
> >
> > > > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin
>
> Did you notice Northern Low Saxon (Low German) _wokeen_ for 'who'?  It
> is pronounced ['voUkE.In] or [voU'kE.In], often abbreviated to _keen_
> [kE.In], especially as a conjunction, as for example in _Ik weet nich,
> keen dat schreven hett_ 'I don't know who wrote it/that'.
>
> This abbreviated _keen_ coincides with _keen_ [kE.In] 'none', 'no ...',
> as in _Ik verstah keen Ingelsch_ 'I understand no English'.  However,
> this does not usually cause confusion.  'No one' and 'nobody' tends to
> be _keen een_ (often written _keeneen_) ['kE.In?E.In] ("no one").

I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
eên_ (_wuk eên_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
('what') and _eên_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
like _wok_ and _een_?
The 'other' _keen_ ('none') does nog exist in Zeelandic/
West-Flemish. We use _gin_, _geên_ (or in Luc's spelling
probably _giïn_).

> Oftentimes I find elements in Flemish and Zeelandic that seem familiar
> from a Lowlands Saxon point of view, elements apparently not found in
> Standard Dutch.  I wonder if this is because (1) Standard Dutch somehow
> lost these, or (2) it is due to Saxon migration to and thus influence on
> the Flemish and Zeelandic areas.

I believe it is a mix of the two. And I think the 'real'
Saxon influence (as you described under [2]) can be
divided in Frisian/ingvaeonic influence on both
Low Saxon and Zeelandic/West-Flemish and on
the other hand true Low Saxon influence on the
language of the far southwest of the Lowlands area.

I believe I once pointed out the early Saxon migration
to the region of Boulogne in northern France, where
'Saxon' placenames are still to be found all over the
area. This Saxon region had quite an influence on
the Flemish/Zeelandic coastal areas just north of it.
I alwaus had difficulty to believe that 'Dutch' (Fran-
conian or Friso-Franconian) was spoken as far south
as Montreuil or even Abbeville in the 10th century.
I think these parts were largely Saxon in language due
to Saxon immigration.

As for the present situation, it is too easy to just say
that, for example, the strongly pronounced suffix -n
in West-Flemish verbs (_eetn_ 'to eat', _praotn_ 'to
talk') is 'Saxon'. In fact, this suffix -n is relatively
young and came from the east, from Brabant. Iron-
ically, it has disappeared from the Brabantish dialects
themselves later on.
The original system is 100% Frisian in both Zeeland
(where it still exists on most of the isles) and West-
Flanders (where it only exits in a few of the most
western villages in French Flandres, eg Wulverdinghe,
Nieurlet/Nieuwerleet and Buysscheure). Look at the
verb 'to walk in Zeelandic (Z), West-Flemish (WF),
French-Flemish of Buysscheure (FFB) and English (E):

Z - FFB - WF = E
ik loôpe - ik loôpe - ik loôpn = I walk
ons lôpe - wilder lôpe - wudder loôpn = we walk
ik è gelôpe - ik è gelôpe - ik èn geloôpn = I have walked

so in these examples there is no n in Zeelandic and
French-Flemish of Buysscheure, but there is an n in
West-Flemish.
Now these:

Z: ik bin te moe vo te lôpen
FFB: ik zien te moe(g) vo te lôpen
WF: ik zien te moe(g) vo/om te loôpn
E: I am too tired to walk

Z: lôpen is vo mien makkelijker as rieen
FFB: lôpen is vo mien makkelijker as/of rieen
WF: loôpn is vo mien makkelijker of rien
E: walking is easier for me than riding (a car, a bike)

As far as I now, Frisian (Westerlauwer Frisian)
Has the exact same system that apparantely
survived the Hollandic expansion in Zeeland
(no n's at all in the pronounciation Hollandic/
Standard Dutch - the n is however written in all
positions in Standard Dutch) and the Brabantish
expansion in the far west of French Flanders.

So I think there was quite an important influence
of Low Saxon on West-Flemish and, to a lesser
extent, Zeelandic. But I believe the Frisian influence
was a lot bigger and probably Zeelandic/West-
Flemish and Low Saxon share some of these
Frisian features.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Marco, thanks for yet another very informative piece!

> I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
> me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
> eên_ (_wuk eên_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
> ('what') and _eên_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
> as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
> like _wok_ and _een_?

I'm not sure.  Maybe someone else knows.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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