LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (04) [E]
Lowlands-L
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Fri Jun 28 23:07:27 UTC 2002
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L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (03) [E]
Holger added the Eatern Frisian LS numbers to
David's list. Time to do the same for Zeelandic.
Note that Zeelandic has suffix -e for numerals
when used as a substantive:
Z:
"Ikke è vuuf kinders"
"'Oevee zei je?"
"Vuuve"
E:
"I've got five children"
"How much did you say?"
"Five"
>From twenty onwards, numbers used to get
_'t_ before them ('t veertig; 't vuuftig). Older
people sometimes still pronounce the _'t_, but
younger people don't, except for 90: _tnegentig_.
Although the _'t_ is gone, you can still tell that it
was once there, because the t sharpened the z's and
v's to s's and f's (so: _feertig_ in stead of _veertig_).
Now the numbers (when used as a substantive):
> >1 one eêne
> >2 two tweêe
> >3 three driee
> >4 four vieere
> >5 five vuuve
> >6 six zesse
> >7 seven zevene
> >8 eight achte
> >9 nine negene
> >10 ten tieene
> >11 eleven elve
> >12 twelve twelve, twaolve
> >13 thirteen dertieene
> >14 fourteen veertieene
> >15 fifteen vuuftieene
> >16 sixteen zestieene
> >17 seventeen zeventieene
> >18 eighteen achttieene
> >19 nineteen negentieene
> >20 twenty twintig
> >30 thirty dartig, dertig
> >40 forty feertig
> >50 fifty fuuftig
> >60 sixty sestig
> >70 seventy seventig
> >80 eighty tachentig
> >90 ninety tnegentig
> >100 hundred 'onderd
Regards,
Marco
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From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: spellings.
Ron wrote:
Gary,
>There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
>the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
>'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
>natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
>a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
>something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
>speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
>'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
>English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
>surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
>word.
Lowlands Saxon has _Rügg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _Rüch_, vs
plural _Rüggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Brügg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
_Brüch_, vs plural _Brüggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
fricativization"?).
When I was living in South Yorkshire in Northern England, I used to live
in
a place called Worsbrough Bridge, which was commonly known by the locals
as
the, 'brigg,' referring to the bridge part of the name.
In this part of Yorkshire, there is a dialect of English spoken, known
as
,"Broad Yorkshire." I have often wondered if this dialect is in any way
related to the frisian language and its curved vowel sounds. Fior
example,
my Uncle Alan would often pronounce school as skoo-il. The word, 'team,'
as
another example would be pronounced as tie-em. Other examples evade me
at
this present time as I have been away from the area for quite a while.
However, it would be interesting to see if any other members could shed
any further light on this observation.
Regards
David Elsworth.
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]
Criostoir asked:
> By the way, Marco - does Frisian or Zeelandic have the
> grammatical possibility "I ain't not never done nowt"
> (I didn't do it [HEAVILY EMPHATIC]) that we do in
> Nottingham English? (Although I should write it as "A
> yenn not nevuh dunn noewt" to be faithful to the
> phonology.)
I cannot tell for Frisian, but in Zeelandic you can say
something like "Ik è dat nooit nie gedae" (litt. I have
not never done that). It might be Standard Dutch
as well ( only colloquial I guess).
Gary wrote:
> I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the natural
> development of the word in Scots, rather than
> a Norse loan
I believe you right away! I was told it was a Norse
loan by a very proud and 'nordic-orientated' Shet-
lander... I don't have the right sources here to
check that...
> I think Scots uses
> something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> speakers if that's horribly misspelt!)
I frequented the 'Brig o' Blair', a pub in Blairgowrie,
when I lived in Coupar Angus a few years ago.
Older Zeelandic has _brigge_ for bridge. There is
a village called _brigdamme_ ('bridge at the dam')
only a few km's from where I live.
So we've got:
Zeelandic - Scots - Shetlandic - English
brigge - brig - ? - bridge
rik - ? - rigg - (ridge)
Regards,
Marco
----------
From: margl <margaret_luck at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E] = th vs v or f
From: Criostoir O Ciardha wrote -
Gary and Ron discuss the use of [v] and [f]
overpowering original /th/. This is something in
England that has spread exponentially, largely because
of the London-based media. It is now very common to
hear younger Nottingham English speakers (of which I
am one) saying "wotch yuh maaf" for "wotch yuh maath"
(watch your mouth). "th" rather than "dh" seems to be
more easily affected.
The same goes for the shift from terminal [l] to a [w]
sound, although Nottingham in particular received a
large wave of Polish migration after the war and I
have often wondered if this change was brought about
as a result.
I haven't seen much evidence of Australians confusing
/th/ with [v] or [f], Ron. My fiancee doesn't do it,
and she's moved between New South Wales, Tasmania and
latterly Western Australia her whole life. I never
seen any examples of it in Kalgoorlie where I live,
although the town is considered quite "ocker Aussie"
(i.e., retaining unaffected pronunciations) in its
dialect. I haven't heard it in Perth when I visit that
city once every couple of months either. There is a
huge dialect difference between Western Australia and
the eastern states (which is now being diluted due to
television).
I have found that a lot of Australians DO confuse 'th' with 'f' or 'v'.
In one of my stories, a six year old girl spelt 'with' as
'wiv'; her mother was most upset and kept saying that of course she knew
how to spell the word; however both of her
parents say 'wiv' all the time, and obviously do not realise that they
do so. The father is Polish and the mother Dutch.
In another incident, I was helping a 13 year old with reading. She had
a lot of trouble dsitinguishing 'th' and 'ff'. I asked
her to spell 'pith' and she wrote 'piff'; I had to repeat the word 4
times before she worked out what I was asking. She
also is Polish.
English is one of very few languages that has the 'th' sound. I believe
Icelandic is another.
best wishes
Marg
[Margaret Luck]
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