LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 23.MAR.2002 (03) [S]

[Sandy Fleming]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 23.MAR.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleemin [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: Orthography

> From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.03.16 (02) [E]
>
> Sandy wrote:
>
> Aye, but cleckin a frae-scratch orthographi is boond tae bee a hale lot
> aesier nor dhe kynd o thing I'm thinkin aboot, qhaur pairt o dhe theori
> is greement. It's nae (weel, less) bather tae cum up wi a spellin system
> gin - like yersel - ye'r no bathered aboot qhit I caad dhe 'human
> factor'. Qhit I'll dui, dho, is juist write in Scots, an try tae mack a
> 'maximalist' version o qhit I wis spaekin aboot. As ye can see, it's no
> dhat muckle different, sae faur onywey, frae dhe wey I write normalli,
> apairt frae <dh>, <qh>, an final <i>.

But hou wad _A_ gae aboot uisin yer orthography? A'd hae tae ken
aa your decisions anent what applies tae what wird - morphology or
diaphonemics, Latin, French or Anglo-Saxon an aa that.

This is the muckle advantage o a radical, raiglar orthography, of
coorse, it's aesy tae dae - or aiblins A should say, it _can_ be duin!


> Aweel, dhare's a muckle graet questin! I haena analysed Lorimer's
> spellin - juist merkit qhaur his practics is better nor qhit we'r
> acquant wi, an <ey> insteid o <aye> is ane o dhaim. I think it's a peeti
> at naurhaund naebuddi (hard word for me tae spell, cause I say [bOdi],
> an [bo:di] for dhe bouk) tacks tent o his spellin, dhe same wey naebuddi
> taks tent o his grammar. Sae, contrar tae qhit wis expectit qhan his NT
> wis published - at it wid hae a big influence on Scots writin - it
> haesna haen haurdli oni, as faur's I can see. Ae'n Ken Farrow's
> translate o the Iliad hauds mair wi Purves-type macks an syntax nor wi
> Lorimer's example.

Is Lorimer the answer, A wonder? What if A wis tae set up
a site wi instructions and tools (like a spellin dictionar
an spellim substitution software), the ettle bein tae help
fowk tae uize Lorimer's spellins? A mean, his New Testament
can be gotten in aa the shops an librar's (a believe paperback's
no oot the nou, for a peety, an the hardback costs aboot £40),
an haes a spellin an pronunciation guide, an's a muckle eneuch
wark tae cover aa the core vocabular o the langage. If A set up
sic a site whaur fowk could leuk up the Lorimer spellins, an
convertit the "alternative" in ScotsteXt tae Lorimer spellins,
this wad gie us a fair muckle body o wark in this system that
could be taen on bi teachers, students, organisations an the
like.

Lorimer's spellins isna perfit - he writes "cairry" an "houss",
that disna fit intae the general spellin system bein uized here
(in a English-like spellin system ye wad try an no uize a dooble
consonant efter twa consecutive vowels, an a dooble-s wad juist
be uized efter a lax vowel), but A think in the first instance
A could juist uize Lorier's exack spellins "warts and all" -
this wad gie ma ScotsteXt spellins some authority (ie Biblical
authority!) an ony adjustments could be left tae the canny chiels
on the next spellin comattee or education board or whatever.

Nou that ma criticisms o Lorimer's spellin's by, A can say that
the'r likely mair advantages than disadvantages. Lorimer dis (or
maistly dis?) win awa fae English spellins, writin "gyde",
"storie", "happie", "obay" an aa that. A wad raither he didna
write "onie", "monie" an siclike insteed o "ony", "mony", but
on the tae haun, A can dree'd for the sake o a authoritative
spellin system, an on the tither, you an Colin an Andy seems
tae prefer thir spellins, so as lang as aabody can dree a bit
o this an that that they dinna agree wi we could hae a
authoritative spellin system.

A'm no sayin aabody wad hae tae spell aathing juist like Lorimer
daes, but at least we wad ken what's a Lorimer spellin an what's
a deleeberate variation. It wad mak it possible tae write official
documents an schuilbeuks, an update auld, anglifee'd texts the
likes o on ScotsteXt, athoot stoppin mair creative writin fae bein
juist the wey the makar wants it.


> I wid still haud at dhe oanli thing tae dui is big on qhit's dhare
> areddi.

Wad ye agree that gin we haed tae big on what's thare areddy, we
could haurly dae better nor start wi Lorimer?


> I dinna think things haes chynged muckle sin the Spellin Comatee, except
> at, at dhat time, dhae wir a norie hauden bi fowk siclike as mysel at wi
> dhe onset o dhe new pairliment dhare wid be a new chance for Scots i dhe

What A meant wis, we hae the Wab nou!


> (Interestin tae see, i dhe airticle on Limburgish, at beuks in schuils
> is tae be pitten oot in five different dialects. Dhis michtna be as bad
> as it soonds - gin ye pictur Shetland, Orkney an Caithness aa haein
> dhair ain beuks, an the Doric wantin dhair ain anes tui - like dhay wid

A dinna see onything wrang wi that - A hiv tried tae say
afore that the idea o ae stechie, staunart orthography is
juist a auld-farrant imperialistic or Gutenbergistic norrie,
but naebody ever seems tae tak ony tent whan A say that kin
o thing!

Lorimer's New Testament is in a variorum o dialecks, sae
there micht be something for aabody, or at least maist fowk!

Tho Lorimer's spellins isna raiglar, gin we'r gree'd that a
richt raiglar orthography (likes o the ane A pit forrit) isna
awa tae happen, Lorimer dis gie us the best o maist ither
things: it's traditional-like, it haes some dialectical
flexibility, it jouks English spellins whaur they dinna fit
in wi Scots, it haes diacritics that helps lairners but could
be made optional for native texts (aiblins í an ý could be
written as "ee" in a diacritic-free vairsion - an aiblins
juist for Anglo-Saxon wirds like "síck"), an it's gey licht
on diacritics onywey.

The ar, of coorse, the question o diaphonemics. Wi Lorimer
uizin different dialecks he didna need them, even gin he kent
the principle. A think the first thing tae dae wad be tae compile
a "Lorimer wirdlist", tho, syne we'll can see what kin o variation
he dis offer.


> I dinna think we can tack qhit we oorsels duis on dhe net as examples o
> chynge. Is ettlin at a smaa follaein no juist aimin at dhe aidge o dhe
> tairget? (Onywey, stertin wi a smaa follaein wirks best if ye'r
> crucifeed first!)

At least that's hittin the tairget (says I, pullin the
Spellin Comattee airae oot the gress)!


> I coud spaek aboot sittin inventin a new gun qhile dhe enemi sodjers is
> lowpin in dhe windae!

That'll dae the nou wi analogies!


> Wid ye be sendin things tae Lallans an Chapman in a radical spellin?

I'd be "happie" tae send them in Lorimer's spellin!

Here a example o a passage fae Lorimer (fae Matthew 5),
sae's fowk kens what we're spaekin aboot.

A grave accent means a stressed syllable (uized juist whaur
lairners is like tae git the stress wrang), acute i or y
means it's soondit /i(:)/ at least bi the mair conservative
spaekers o Scots; tt that no aa graphemes is soondit
like in English, eg:

<ou> aye soondit /u(:)/
unstressed <ow> soondit the likes o /I/, /a/, /e/ or /@/
conform tae dialeck.

<quote>

SYNE HE GAED round the hail o Galilee, teachin i their
meetinhousses, an preachin the Kingdom, an hailin ilka
síckness an ilka complènt amang the fowk. His fame gaed
outowre aa Sýria, an aa at wis oniegate ailin wis brocht
til him—-fowk dreein aa kinkind o ills an pyne, fowk pestit
wi ill spírits, fowk afflickit wi the faain—síckness or
the pairls—an he hailed them aa; an frae Galilee an the Ten
Touns, frae Jerusalem an Judaea an ayont Jordan, muckle
thrangs cam an fallowt him about.
    Seein hou monie there wis o them, he spealed the brae,
an whan he hed sitten doun, an his disciples hed gethert
about him, he set tae the teachin, an this is what he
said tae them:

"Hou happie the puir at is hummle afore God,
    for theirs is the Kingdom o heiven!
 Hou happie the dowff an dowie,
    for they will be comfortit!
 Hou happie the douce an cannie,
    for they will faa the yird!
 Hou happie them at yaups an thrists for richteousness,
    for they will get their sairin!
 Hou happie the mercifu,
    for they will win mercie!
 Hou happie the clean o hairt,
    for they will see God!
 Hou happie the redders o strow an strife,
    for they will be caa'd the childer o God!
 Hou happie them at hes dree'd misgydin for richteousness' sake,
    for theirs is the Kingdom o Heiven!

    Hou happie ye, whan they tash an misgyde ye an say
aathing ill o ye, líein on ye, for my sake! Blythe be
ye an mirkie, for gryte is the rewaird bidin ye in heiven;
it wis een sae they misgydit the Prophets afore ye.
"Ye ar the saut o the warld. But gin the saut gaes
saurless, what will gíe it back its tang? There is
nocht adae wi it mair but cast it outbye for fowk tae
patter wi their feet.
    "Ye ar the licht o the warld. A toun biggit on a
hill—tap canna be hoddit; an again, whan fowk licht a
lamp, they pit-it-na ablò a meal-bassie, but set it up
on the dresser-heid, an syne it gíes licht for aabodie
i the houss. See at your licht shines that gate afore
the warld, sae at aabodie may see your guid deeds an
ruise your Faither in heiven!
    "Trewna I am come tae abolish the Law an the
Prophets: I haena come tae abolish them, but tae
perfyte them. Atweill, I tell ye, as lang as heiven
an yird bides, no the smaaest scant o ink or scrape
o the pen will be strucken frae the Law, or aathing
at maun be hes come tae pass. Onie-ane, than, at braks
ane o thir commaunds, be it the least o them, an lairns
ithers tae dae the like, will be the least thocht-on i
the Kíngdom o Heiven. But onie-ane at keeps them, an
lairns ithers tae keep them, will be muckle thocht-on
i the Kíngdom o Heiven. Deed, I tell ye, onless ye ar
a hantle better-daein men nor the Doctors o the Law an
the Pharisees, ye s' ne'er win intil the Kíngdom o
Heiven avà.
    "Ye hae heared at it wis said tae them i the langsyne:
'Thou sanna commit murther, an onie-ane at commits murther
maun thole an assize afore the magistrate.' But I say til
ye, 'Onie-ane at is angert at his brither maun thole an
assize afore the magistrate.'
    Again, 'Onie—ane at says til his brither, "Ye bee-heidit
gowk!" maun thole an assize afore the Council.' But I say:
'Onie-ane at ays til his brither, "Ye muckle sumph!" maun
thole an assize afore ane at can duim til the lowes o hell.'
Sae whan ye bring your gift tae the altar, gin ye caa tae
mind at your bnither hes something again ye, lae your gift
there forenent the altar an awà an souther it up wi your
brither, an syne, but no afore, come an offer your gift.
Loss nae time in greein wi onie-ane at hes raised a pley
again ye, as lang as ye ar on the road tae the court wi him:
or aiblins he will haund ye owre tae the Juidge, an the Juidge
will turn ye owre til the Officiar o the Court, an ye will
finnd yoursel in jyle. Atweill, I tell ye, ye s' no win out
the jyle or ye hae peyed up ilka plack an farden!

</quote>

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
  Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l" are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================